Israeli Gaza Offensive

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"][QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"]The actions of Israeli state do not represent Jews. I never said such a thing. The state does little to uphold the real teachings of Judaism.

When people refer to a country, the are generally referring to their government, not all the people. I'm Canadian, and when I heard that it was the only country to oppose the UN resolution condemning Israel over its actions in Gaza, I was appalled, and likewise, chanted "Shame on Canada" with other Canadians.

I am actually quite pleased and happy that there are many Jews who are opposing the attacks on Gaza. Here in Canada, 8 Jewish women occupied the Israeli consulate on January , and demanded for Israel to end its atrocities. Likewise, there is also some Jews in Israel, though they sadly make up a small minority, opposing the actions of their government.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]You are misunderstanding me and it's my fault for not being more clear. I do not accept the stance that[I] either[/I] government is like Nazi Germany or is free of blame.

Just as Israel has a responsiblity to their people so does Hamas and in my opinion, both of them are failing. My stance is more in favor of Israel since I feel Hamas is failing their people more (something James already covered so I'll not repeat it), but by no means do I see the responsiblity exclusively falling on Israel or do I see them as a Nazi type government. [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"']Accept responsibility? What did the innocent people in Gaza do justify their brutal slaughter? How about Israel accept responsibility for their crimes rather than blaming their own victims?[/color][/quote]What did the innocent people in Israel do to warrant having rockets fired? People have covered it in here already. Both sides are to blame, not just one. I'm not going to argue in circles with you since you seem to have the agenda of placing the blame solely on Israel. [/FONT]

[Justin]

I'm a bit late, so I'll just respond to the original post.

1- Israel is not in violation of the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Convention has absolutely nothing to do with invading other nations. It's all about the fair and decent treatment of prisoners of war.

2- I can't see judging Israel or the Palestinians in this case. I don't live there, and I don't know what goes on. The answer to this problem isn't in who's right. It's in who's willing to stop believing in nationalism. Which, conveniently, is the answer to a vast majority of the armed conflicts around the world.

-Justin

[Esther]

[quote name='Chabichou'][COLOR="#004a6f"]I think it's about high time that people recognize Israel for what it is: a terrorist state, comparable to Nazi Germany. For the past 60 years many people, particularly those living in the west, have been fooled by Israel's lies claiming it wants peace, but I am glad to say their numbers are dropping. [/quote][/COLOR]

[SIZE="1"][FONT="Verdana"]Excuse me? I'm afraid you've been spoon fed too much propaganda from Hamas television. Watching a bit too much of that terrorist Mickey Mouse, huh? You've got it completely twisted -- Hamas is the group that's listed as a terrorist organization by nearly westernized and civilized nations. Palestine themselves have declared Hamas a dangerously militant group. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[quote name='Chabichou'][COLOR="#004a6f"]It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out by now, that Israel, its pockets filled to bursting-point with American money, uses terror to beat its opponents into submission. Israel craves any opportunity to show off their "military might" to give the message: "if things don't go our way, we will pulverize you". This craving greatly increased when they suffered a humiliating defeat to Hezbollah in the summer of 2006.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]

[FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]Oh please. Israel doesn't bring out tanks and rockets just for the lulz. Israel brings out the heavy artillery whenever they feel they're in danger; which they have the right to feel seeing the area they live in is full of barbarian terrorists. Poor Israelis having to live in such a crappy area thanks to..[/SIZE][/FONT]

[quote name='Chabichou'][COLOR="#004a6f"]In 2004, the International Court of Justice ruled that Israel has no right to East Jeurusalem, Gaza or the West Bank. Every year since 1989, the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution, that is to be a peaceful resolution of the Palestine-Israeli conflict. Every time, the whole world would vote in favour of this resolution, while Israel and the U.S (along with few microstates) would vote against it. The Palestinian authority, and yes, even Hamas, have come to accept this as solution. The only obstacle is Israel and the U.S.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]

[FONT="Verdana"]Do you [I]honestly[/I] believe that Hamas would uphold that resolution? That's like asking al-Qaeda to shake hands with the US miltary and calling a truce. It will NEVER happen. Hamas is such a radical group, it's like a horse gone wild -- there's no stopping it. It wouldn't be long before Hamas decided to shoot a couple of rockets into Sderot to provoke Israeli action then cry to the rest of the world how their people are suffering.[/FONT]

[quote name='Chabichou'][COLOR="#004a6f"]Hamas was diligent to uphold the ceasefire. Israel however, does not want peace. If Hamas stayed true to the ceasefire, its legitimacy would increase, and international pressure would increase on Israel and U.S to finally accept the two-state solution.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]

[FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]Tell that to Hamas. I still find it hilarious you're portraying Hamas like the nice guy here. Knee-slapper.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[quote name='Chabichou'][COLOR="#004a6f"]Israel had been planning for this war-- no, this [I]massacre[/I] of the Gazans before the ceasefire even began in June. The ceasefire simply gave them time to build up their weaponry. All they needed now was an incentive for attacking Gaza.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]

[FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]And Islamic radicals have been planning the complete annihilation of the Jewish people for hundreds of years. They're even preparing their children by telling them that strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing yourself up is an honorable thing to do! Going to school? Getting an education, a career? Raising a family? Nah. Those all take back seat to suicide bombings. What a great way to raise a kid!

Israel is 100% justified in their Gazan offensive, as I've already stated before. Hamas, and every Muslim extremist group for that matter, must be EXTERMINATED. If Israel is going to combat terrorism and protect the people of the free world, then I would expect EVERYONE to stand up and support them.

Shame on Palestine for not recognizing that Israel is trying to free them from the evil grips of Hamas.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"']I think you are the one who has been spoon-fed lies. The complete garbage you have regurgitated doesn't even warrant a reply.[/COLOR][/quote]So what you are basically saying is that this entire post is spam.

I'll be clear here. If you can't be [I]bothered[/I] to do your opponent the courtesy of actually responding to their points ([SIZE="1"]as in explaining why they are wrong[/SIZE]), other than to call them [I]garbage[/I] then don't reply at all.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Esther'][/COLOR]

[SIZE="1"][FONT="Verdana"]Excuse me? I'm afraid you've been spoon fed too much propaganda from Hamas television. Watching a bit too much of that terrorist Mickey Mouse, huh? You've got it completely twisted -- Hamas is the group that's listed as a terrorist organization by nearly westernized and civilized nations. Palestine themselves have declared Hamas a dangerously militant group. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[/COLOR]

[FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]Oh please. Israel doesn't bring out tanks and rockets just for the lulz. Israel brings out the heavy artillery whenever they feel they're in danger; which they have the right to feel seeing the area they live in is full of barbarian terrorists. Poor Israelis having to live in such a crappy area thanks to..[/SIZE][/FONT]

[/COLOR]

[FONT="Verdana"]Do you [I]honestly[/I] believe that Hamas would uphold that resolution? That's like asking al-Qaeda to shake hands with the US miltary and calling a truce. It will NEVER happen. Hamas is such a radical group, it's like a horse gone wild -- there's no stopping it. It wouldn't be long before Hamas decided to shoot a couple of rockets into Sderot to provoke Israeli action then cry to the rest of the world how their people are suffering.[/FONT]

[/COLOR]

[FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]Tell that to Hamas. I still find it hilarious you're portraying Hamas like the nice guy here. Knee-slapper.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[/COLOR]

[FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]And Islamic radicals have been planning the complete annihilation of the Jewish people for hundreds of years. They're even preparing their children by telling them that strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing yourself up is an honorable thing to do! Going to school? Getting an education, a career? Raising a family? Nah. Those all take back seat to suicide bombings. What a great way to raise a kid!

Israel is 100% justified in their Gazan offensive, as I've already stated before. Hamas, and every Muslim extremist group for that matter, must be EXTERMINATED. If Israel is going to combat terrorism and protect the people of the free world, then I would expect EVERYONE to stand up and support them.

Shame on Palestine for not recognizing that Israel is trying to free them from the evil grips of Hamas.[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]Are you absolutely insane? Have you lost your mind? I can't even begin to defuse the demagoguery you've shamelessly employed in your post. I'll try to pick out a few specific quotes an explain myself.

[QUOTE]Hamas is the group that's listed as a terrorist organization by nearly [b]westernized and civilized nations.[/b][/QUOTE]
I can't help but notice how you pair "western" and "civilized" nations to side with Israel. It's especially strange you mention the West when their response to this unfolding crisis has been [I]to denounce the scale of Israel's reaction[/I] as unnecessarily violent. Furthermore, what do you mean by "civilized"? I have a hunch you just mean "westernized" which is equally disturbing. To call something "civilized" is subjective - I'm sure Palestinian civilians getting shelled day and night consider the Israelis the "uncivilized" ones.

[QUOTE]Israel brings out the heavy artillery whenever they feel they're in danger...[/QUOTE]
Sure, but Chabi's original point still stands - the possibility looms large that Israel has been launching such a violent offensive because of the approaching elections.

[QUOTE]...which they have the right to feel seeing the area they live in is full of [B]barbarian terrorists[/B]. Poor Israelis having to live in such a crappy area thanks to..[/QUOTE]
So you call them "barbarians"? Maybe Hamas is viewed as a "freedom fighter" force. These terms of "civilized" and "barbarian" are loaded and unhelpful terms when trying to have a serious conversation about the issues. Additionally, whose fault is it that Israel is in the area it's in? Oh, right, the "civilized" West. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, folks.

[QUOTE]And Islamic radicals have been planning the complete annihilation of the Jewish people for hundreds of years. They're even preparing their children by telling them that strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing yourself up is an honorable thing to do! Going to school? Getting an education, a career? Raising a family? Nah. Those all take back seat to suicide bombings. What a great way to raise a kid!

Israel is 100% justified in their Gazan offensive, as I've already stated before. Hamas, and every Muslim extremist group for that matter, must be EXTERMINATED. If Israel is going to combat terrorism and protect the people of the free world, then I would expect EVERYONE to stand up and support them.

Shame on Palestine for not recognizing that Israel is trying to free them from the evil grips of Hamas.[/QUOTE]
I'll be totally serious with you. You sound ridiculous. You sound uninformed, biased, and quite smitten with the propaganda you so thoroughly denounce. This portion of your post is not just insane and unfair, it's quite frankly offensive to any Muslim. Hell, it should be offensive to anyone with a sensible bone in their body.

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']So what you are basically saying is that this entire post is spam.

I'll be clear here. If you can't be [I]bothered[/I] to do your opponent the courtesy of actually responding to their points ([SIZE="1"]as in explaining why they are wrong[/SIZE]), other than to call them [I]garbage[/I] then don't reply at all.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, it's pretty d@mn close to spam. I understand Chabi's frustration - someone made an offensive, flagrantly incorrect post. I've tried to explain the roots of (perhaps) why she's so pissed, and hopefully I've articulated the reasons why I take so much offense with Esther's words.[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Retribution][font=Arial]To be honest, it's pretty d@mn close to spam. I understand Chabi's frustration - someone made an offensive, flagrantly incorrect post. I've tried to explain the roots of (perhaps) why she's so pissed, and hopefully I've articulated the reasons why I take so much offense with Esther's words.[/font][/QUOTE]I find it interesting that you took the time to comment on what you felt was off with Esther's post and yet completely ignored Chabichou's equally offensive and flagrantly incorrect post. Shall I highlight some of the issues?[quote][FONT="Arial"]I think it's about high time that people recognize Israel for what it is: a terrorist state, comparable to Nazi Germany.[/FONT][/quote]If you're going to compare them to Nazi Germany then someone needs a serious history lesson. I'd like to see the proof that Israel is a so called totalitarian dictatorship. [quote][FONT="Arial"]It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out by now, that Israel, its pockets filled to bursting-point with American money, uses terror to beat its opponents into submission.[/FONT][/quote]Nice insinuation that American's fund terrorists and yet you conveniently overlooked this one Retri.[quote][FONT="Arial"]Israel however, does not want peace.[/FONT][/quote]I'm sorry, but who's the one who's goal in their government literally[I] is[/I] that it will destroy the state of Israel? And yet we're supposed to believe that Hamas actually wants peace?[quote][FONT="Arial"]Israel had been planning for this war-- no, this [I]massacre[/I] of the Gazans before the ceasefire even began in June. The ceasefire simply gave them time to build up their weaponry. All they needed now was an incentive for attacking Gaza.[/FONT][/quote]Planning? What planning? This isn't some attempt to wipe them out. If that was their goal I think they'd be a hell of a lot more ruthless in battle than they have been. Everything in that is pure speculation as to what Israel's true goals are.[quote][FONT="Arial"]Hence, they broke the ceasefire on November 4th and killed 6 Palestinian militants, with the flimsy excuse that "they were digging a tunnel to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier".[/FONT'] [/quote]He said, she said. Perhaps Hamas is just bent out of shape for getting caught. Or perhaps it is an excuse. The truth is that you and I don't really know, whether you want to admit it or not.

So seriously, both posts were pretty damn offensive and my point stands. If someone is that angry over someone else's opinion (right or wrong) or rather because they have a different view on things... Then don't post until you've calmed down and can explain [I]why[/I] you don't agree with it. Obviously I'm not talking directly to you Retri (since you took the time to respond), I'm just saying, both parties here said things that could be considered offensive.

[Tophel]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']I find it interesting that you took the time to comment on what you felt was off with Esther's post and yet completely ignored Chabichou's equally offensive and flagrantly incorrect post.[/quote]

From my reading, both seemed on the ends of the spectrum but I would consider Esther's post a lot more vitrolic, based on prejudice and huge ill-informed whereas Chabi, whilst taking a spin on things, at least demonstrates an understanding of the issues and is better informed. Equally offensive? Debatable. Flagrantly incorrect? No where near the universe that esther's post inhabits.

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']If you're going to compare them to Nazi Germany then someone needs a serious history lesson.[/quote]

Godwin's law in effect. That was specious and not a good idea. I understand where it comes from, i.e. the ruthlessness of the Israeli state, but Nazi comparisons should be limited IMO. Too easy.

However, the terrorist state comment is defendable. You may not agree with it, but one can certainly make that argument based on the facts. Israel has ultimate power in that area. It's military is unmatched. It can and does rain terror whenever it sees fit. And if someone thinks the Palestinians in Gaza are living under terror, they aren't being honest. Or if they think the 'terror' from rockets Hamas fires is anywhere the near the equivalence of the terror that is now raining down on Gaza, again they are being disingenous. IMO it is amply clear, beyond any reasonable interpretation, that Israel does inflict terror. The reasons for that can be debated and people can have different opinions but it isn't a clearly absurd or flagrantly incorrect statement.

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Nice insinuation that American's fund terrorists and yet you conveniently overlooked this one Retri.[/quote]

Well that is silly. I mean your point. Again, it is well established that America is tied to the hip with Israel. So much so, there has not been a single President who has ever rebuked Israel or taken a negative view of the state. Except for Jimmy Carter, but that was AFTER he left office, and he took a huge beating about it. The blind American support towards Israel is, to the rest of the world, even including Britain, quote at odds with the factual situation on the ground.

American support is clear and obvious, both politically and militarily (in terms of weapons and intelligence) and if one takes the view that Israel is a state that practices terror, then that insinuation can be made quite easily.

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']I'm sorry, but who's the one who's goal in their government literally[I] is[/I] that it will destroy the state of Israel? And yet we're supposed to believe that Hamas actually wants peace?[/quote]

Hamas is impotent. Israel is not. The ball is obviously in Israeli's court. To suggest that Hamas and Israel are equal powers or have equal responsibilities is an absurdity. As for the much talk about clause in the Hamas charter (it seems we keep talking about this for some weird reason), as I've said so many times in this thread. Empty words.
--- sorry gotogo

be back later to edit

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Tophel]From my reading, both seemed on the ends of the spectrum but I would consider Esther's post a lot more vitrolic, based on prejudice and huge ill-informed whereas Chabi, whilst taking a spin on things, at least demonstrates an understanding of the issues and is better informed. Equally offensive? Debatable. Flagrantly incorrect? No where near the universe that esther's post inhabits.[/quote]In your opinion. Remember that. Both posts took an emotive spin desigined to make the other appear completely at fault. Making [I]both of them[/I] flagrantly incorrect in many respects.[QUOTE=Tophel]Godwin's law in effect. That was specious and not a good idea. I understand where it comes from, i.e. the ruthlessness of the Israeli state, but Nazi comparisons should be limited IMO. Too easy.[/quote]This is all I was driving at by the way, it's a copout to compare them to something like that. An emotive tool to point fingers and say [I]look at how horrible they are[/I] when it's far from the truth.[QUOTE=Tophel']However, the terrorist state comment is defendable. You may not agree with it, but one can certainly make that argument based on the facts. Israel has ultimate power in that area. It's military is unmatched. It can and does rain terror whenever it sees fit. And if someone thinks the Palestinians in Gaza are living under terror, they aren't being honest. Or if they think the 'terror' from rockets Hamas fires is anywhere the near the equivalence of the terror that is now raining down on Gaza, again they are being disingenous. IMO it is amply clear, beyond any reasonable interpretation, that Israel does inflict terror. The reasons for that can be debated and people can have different opinions but it isn't a clearly absurd or flagrantly incorrect statement.[/quote]And again this goes both ways, the terror aspect and no I don't really agree with you and I'll leave it at that.[QUOTE=Tophel]Well that is silly. I mean your point. Again, it is well established that America is tied to the hip with Israel. So much so, there has not been a single President who has ever rebuked Israel or taken a negative view of the state. Except for Jimmy Carter, but that was AFTER he left office, and he took a huge beating about it. The blind American support towards Israel is, to the rest of the world, even including Britain, quote at odds with the factual situation on the ground.

American support is clear and obvious, both politically and militarily (in terms of weapons and intelligence) and if one takes the view that Israel is a state that practices terror, then that insinuation can be made quite easily.[/quote]No, it's not. Israel is not considered a terrorist organization. They're a country that has every right to exist and defend itself. I don't always agree with how they go about it, but to say America supports terrorism implies that Israel doesn't have the right to even exist. This is what I'm getting at.[quote name='Tophel']Hamas is impotent. Israel is not. The ball is obviously in Israeli's court. To suggest that Hamas and Israel are equal powers or have equal responsibilities is an absurdity. As for the much talk about clause in the Hamas charter (it seems we keep talking about this for some weird reason), as I've said so many times in this thread. Empty words.[/quote]Level of power isn't so much the issue as my taking a stance over how people continue to outright ignore Hamas' part in this mess and their responsibility to their own people. No one here has said that power wise they were equal. But to suggest that having less military power somehow alleviates one side from having equal responsiblity to their citizens... that is what's truly absurd in my opinion.

Oh and btw... James is an Australian, not American. So to think that only Americans support Israel is an assumption.

[James]

[quote]I can't see judging Israel or the Palestinians in this case. I don't live there, and I don't know what goes on. The answer to this problem isn't in who's right. It's in who's willing to stop believing in nationalism. Which, conveniently, is the answer to a vast majority of the armed conflicts around the world.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]That's an interesting point. I would suggest that Israel's brand of nationalism is unique though, given the circumstances under which the Jewish state was founded.

I think the bigger difficulty right now relates specifically to religious and ethic divides, as well as the simple fact that - for both sides - it's all about retribution (no pun intended) rather than reconciliation.

For those who are entirely pro-Israel, let me make a couple of points.

First of all, bear in mind that approximately half of the 1.5 million people in Gaza are eighteen or under in age. These are literally children. Some of them have parents involved with Hamas's military arm, but they obviously wouldn't understand the complexities of this - all they know is that their mother or father has been killed by Israel.

While we might argue that Israel has the right to defend itself, the end result of the Gaza offensive could easily be counter-productive for a few reasons.

Yes, Israel may have made it more difficult for Hamas to organize and to fire rockets across the border. But this is unquestionably a temporary achievement.

The longterm proposition of such an offensive is wholly more problematic, because the offensive has taught the many lost children of Gaza one important lesson: Israel is the enemy.

A teenage boy who loses his mother in a helicopter attack can not realistically be expected to say "Oh well, we deserved it because someone I don't know fired a rocket at a country I know nothing about". That boy is either going to become so damaged and withdrawn that he'll suffer the scars forever [i]or[/i] he will turn to militancy, as so many young, unemployed, angry men tend to do.

My hope is that Hamas now agrees to cease rocket fire into Israel. Even if you acknowledge that the Israeli response was very heavy-handed, it was nonetheless a [i]response[/i] rather than an [i]instigation[/i]. Hamas has directly and indirectly brought this horror on its people and for that, the Palestineans should ensure that they can never return to government in the future.

If Hamas and Israel both agree to cease hostilities, it would be a good opportunity to re-open Gaza's borders while also incorporating a UN-sanctioned force to monitor the flow of goods into Gaza - specifically, to stop any more weapons smuggling.

This may at least provide a short-term respite where moderate voices can be heard and where both sides can consider their options.[/font]

[quote name='Chabichou']Accept responsibility? What did the innocent people in Gaza do justify their brutal slaughter? How about Israel accept responsibility for their crimes rather than blaming their own victims?[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]The [i]innocent[/i] people in Gaza - those majority who are truly innocent - did nothing wrong.

But the militant arm of Hamas - and Hamas itself - is largely responsible for instigating the battle, while also avoiding any semblance of real governance.

Read the part of my post above that explains the potential negatives - other than the horrific loss of innocent life - as a result of Israel's attack.

And then consider this second part of my post.

The mistake you're making here, Chabi, is that you are suggesting that those who are defending Israel to you are automatically giving them a free pass for their behaviour.

I assure you, for most people here, that is not the case. The problem we see is that absolutely [i]none[/i] of the content in your posts make any attempt to either balance your criticism, or provide any reasoning beyond feel-good PC slogans. And with an issue this complex, that just isn't good enough for most people.

As I said earlier, I think that the ability to overlook Hamas as an organization and a movement is almost indicative of a reverse-racism. Perhaps because Israel is an established democratic state, they are easier to criticize? They should know better? I don't know.

You can't make the argument that Hamas was elected and is therefore beyond reproach. The fact that Hamas [i]was elected[/i] brings upon them the responsibilities of government!

I would recommend just taking a step back and considering all of this. With some exceptions, most people in this thread are trying to express a balanced point of view. This does not mean that both sides have equal blame or are of equal size - that is almost a semantic argument (like the comparison between Hamas's "annoying" rockets and Israel's apparent-genocide).

Such semantics only distract from the real problem and they do not attribute responsibility in a meaningful way. They just perpetuate a purely emotional argument. [/font]

[quote name='Tophel']Hamas is impotent. Israel is not. The ball is obviously in Israeli's court. To suggest that Hamas and Israel are equal powers or have equal responsibilities is an absurdity. As for the much talk about clause in the Hamas charter (it seems we keep talking about this for some weird reason), as I've said so many times in this thread. Empty words.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Neither Hamas nor Israel are impotent. Israel is obviously the far more powerful force, but that does not inherently make them any more wrong or right. Hamas is obviously "impotent" enough to organize a large weapons smuggling operation for the purpose of firing rockets into southern Israeli towns.

What is an absurdity is this idea that size or power somehow makes a fundamental difference in terms of a group's responsibilities. As I have said before, we keep being told that Hamas is an elected government, as if this procludes it from bearing any responsibility for violence. Just as each Israeli government is responsible for its policies, so too is Hamas.

Those who excuse all of Israel's actions due to Hamas's provocation are just as ardently one-sided as those who excuse all of Hamas's actions due to Israel's provocation. It is a circle of intellectual dishonesty that feeds upon itself and perpetuates continuously - this very thread demonstrates why a political settlement is so difficult.

I think that your last sentence really underscores what I've been talking about here. When referencing a founding document for what is now a government, you say "empty words". I wonder, perhaps, what you would say if the Israeli constituion specifically referenced the need to eliminate all of Palestine? You don't even need to answer that, actually.

Words are important, especially for governments (and [i]especially[/i] for elected governments that truly represent their people). A charter, constitution or set of guiding principles represents the fundamental mission and values of an organization. Far from empty words, these documents embody the spirit of the organization they represent.

Often I find one fact or one step is examined without examining those steps that led to it, or the circumstances surrounding it. Maintaining a full view of this conflict is impossible for any of us who do not make a full-time study of it and it is even more difficult for those of us who do not live among it.

At least for those of us who [i]don't[/i] live among the conflict ourselves, you would think that we could have a somewhat impassionate view that can look at multiple angles without submitting to the desperation and anger that those directly involved fall victim to.

Unfortunately we [i]do[/i] fall victim to that, but in a far more insidious way - for many of us who live far away, this conflict is limited to a talking point, where we feel better when we designate a hero and a villain. Then we can call it a day and go back to our peaceful lives.

If only the actual conflict were so simple.[/font]

[Justin]

Point well made, old friend.

The fact that we're 'armchair' shot-calling a conflict that none of us is directly involved with is, frankly, a bit sickening. Especially such an incredibly complex one.

I'm from Alabama. The people there who're educated enough to think about this kind of thing are all--obviously--pro-Israel. So believe me, I've heard [i]every[/i] arguement you can imagine--legitimate or not--about why Israel has the 'right' to that land.

But, fortunately, I read. And so I've read every argument--legitimate or not--for why the Palestinians deserve that land.

And the fact is, I can see only two clear ends to such an embittered debate/conflict:

1) To the victor, goes the spoils. That is to say, like America, the British, the Chinese, and the Roman Empire, that a country creates its own right to exist and own territory based upon its ability to conquer it and keep it.

Why the hell not? It's worked for all of human existance.

2) But should always be the hope for a better future. I say that the whole world should crawl off it's high horse of nationalism. It shouldn't "God bless America." It should be "God bless EVERYONE."

Hey, I can dream.

-Justin

[thesenator]

I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News [url]http://samsonblinded.org/news[/url] which runs some very odd reports.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='thesenator]I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News [url]http://samsonblinded.org/news[/url'] which runs some very odd reports.[/quote]I'm surprised that you're taking someone's personal blog as a legitimate source of information. I tried looking through that and other than to link back to themselves, nothing led to any outside sources of information. There wasn't anything to back up what any of the snippets said.

Also, what government doesn't censor some of their news? Especially if it's related to military operations. That shouldn't be a surprise if you think about it.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']I'm surprised that you're taking someone's personal blog as a legitimate source of information. I tried looking through that and other than to link back to themselves, nothing led to any outside sources of information. There wasn't anything to back up what any of the snippets said.[/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]Even though a blog is by no means a veritable source, what he says is correct.

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/gaza-israel-reporters-foreign-journalists[/url]

I remember reading about it on BBC, but couldn't find the article in an abbreviated search, so I settled for this instead.[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

You kind of glossed over this part of my post:[quote]Also, [U]what government doesn't censor some of their news[/U]? Especially if it's related to military operations. That shouldn't be a surprise if you think about it.[/quote][QUOTE=Retribution][font=Arial]Even though a blog is by no means a veritable source, what he says is correct.

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/gaza-israel-reporters-foreign-journalists[/url]

I remember reading about it on BBC, but couldn't find the article in an abbreviated search, so I settled for this instead.[/font][/QUOTE]I didn't say he was wrong, I said I doubted whether or not the source could be trusted. Anything like that is something I'm going to read with the mindset of [U]it's not official[/U] and therefore has a [U]high potential to be incorrect[/U].

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]I think this specific instance is of concern because Israel did not let in [i]any[/i] foreign journalists to cover an extremely pressing and controversial military operation... this really hasn't been done by the west in the recent past.

Sure, nations may pressure journalists to omit certain things, or try to steer them, but the fact remains they were still given the ability to even have access to the conflict zone.[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Retribution][font=Arial]I think this specific instance is of concern because Israel did not let in [i]any[/i] foreign journalists to cover an extremely pressing and controversial military operation... this really hasn't been done by the west in the recent past.

Sure, nations may pressure journalists to omit certain things, or try to steer them, but the fact remains they were still given the ability to even have access to the conflict zone.[/font][/QUOTE]I think we are misunderstanding one another. I questioned the site's legitimacy and reliability, not the knowledge that Israel censored and kept journalists out. That's old news Retri. o_O I already knew about that since the concern over that has been brought up many times since the conflict began.