Atheists Send a Message, on 800 Buses

[Rachmaninoff]

If you haven't read this yet: [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/europe/07london.html?ref=world"][U]Atheists Send a Message, on 800 Buses[/U][/URL] then I suggest you do so. =P With all the depressing news about other things going on in the world, reading this just made me laugh.

I'm not an atheist but I'm not really religious either so I find the concept of ads on both sides amusing. And in a way I agree with the sentiment expressed in the article. If one side can use ads to put their religious interests out there, only seems fair for other views to be out there as well.

Best part of the article was the picture by the way. =P

[Mr. Blonde]

[QUOTE]
“I think it’s dreadful,” said Sandra Lafaire, 76, a tourist from Los Angeles, who said she believed in God and still enjoyed her life, thank you very much. “Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don’t like it in my face.”
[/QUOTE]


Churches advertise all of the time, it's only fair that the other team gets a chance to as well. Unfortunately we still look down on non-believers in this country as soulless and wrong. The church even goes as far as saying we'll be tortured for eternity in fire and brimstone. Being without faith does not make you a bad person.

We no longer need the threat of God to keep in line and maintain order as we did 5,000 years ago. We don't need to threaten people with eternal damnation anymore, not with organized law and order. Times have changed and it's only natural people's minds have changed as well.

Athiests aren't deceivers and they're sick of being told they are by the "righteous". If I can live my life in a good and moral fashion without believing I'm going to be rewarded or punished in the afterlife... if I can live a good life without thinking there's something in it for me at the end, doesn't that make me a good person?

I think so.

[NinjaGirlSango]

I'm an atheist, and therefore terribly biased, but if churches can display a link to a website that says "you're going to hell" instead of "you're probably going to hell", why must an atheist ad include the "probably"?

On the other hand, for atheists to display an ad on a bus that could be equally insulting to people of the faith in response to an ad that insulted them (also on the buses) seems a tad petty.
But what Mr. Blonde said is true too: religions get to advertise all the time. Though I think they could have found another way, it is about time that other groups had a chance to advertise too.

[Xeonn]

I may be bias since I don't believe in god and don't like the fact that people in my family try to force me into. If I were to see that as I was walking down the street I'd most likely start to smile.

[QUOTE]But what Mr. Blonde said is true too: religions get to advertise all the time. Though I think they could have found another way, it is about time that other groups had a chance to advertise too.[/QUOTE]

I agree though it could get a little ugly if someone decided to be "that guy" and started insulting the other religions.

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]Heh gave a chuckle so thanks for that Rach. Really turnabout is fair play as the saying goes, and anyone who advertises something along the lines of "unless you believe in God you're going to burn in Hell" has earned this little piece of retribution from the other side. Hopefully it won't be taken too seriously as it's obvious it's pretty tongue-in-cheek.[/SIZE]

[Manic Webb]

Atheists, continue doing what you do. If you're right, then none of us will care when we die. If you're wrong, then I seriously doubt a loving God would punish you just because you refused to be scared by "You're Going to Hell" Website #734,466.

[Sangome]

[SIZE="1"]My message is gonna be rather short, but what the hey.

I'm religious, and I don't really care. I don't agree with the message, obviously, but if we've advertised all the time, it's kinda only fair. Plus, if you don't like it [and this goes for either side], simply ignore it. It's not that hard.

But upon closer inspection and reading the other posts, yeah, the ad itself seems kinda like a shot towards people with faith...[/SIZE]

[Darren]

While I do agree with the statement that everyone has the right to advertise their beliefs, (and I am an atheist) I think that it wasn't a smart idea. I've heard non-religious people complaining all the time that christians push their views on other people...

And then they go and do the same...

atheists aren't even an organized religious group... So they need to quit acting like one.

[Raiha]

[quote name='Darren']While I do agree with the statement that everyone has the right to advertise their beliefs, (and I am an atheist) I think that it wasn't a smart idea. I've heard non-religious people complaining all the time that christians push their views on other people...

And then they go and do the same...

atheists aren't even an organized religious group... So they need to quit acting like one.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Well there ARE the organized atheist lobbies trying to ensure that Obama doesn't use the word 'God' ANYWHERE in his inagural swearing/address/afterspeech/afterparty, etc etc etc. And they're kinda like a religious group in that they have a set of core beliefs, even if they're "God is a white guy trick." OR something like that.

But either way they'll continue to act like one as long as they get a response out of people. Just ask Santa Claus, Christmas Trees, and Easter. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Shy]

[size=1]In my experience, Atheists are some of the unhappiest people I've ever met in my entire life.

Having said that, this is pretty hilarious. With all of the religious undertones in advertising these days, it's refreshing to see the other side have a voice as well. Clearly they're not going to 'convert' anyone, but they definitely got their point across.

-Shy[/size]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Shy'][size=1]In my experience, Atheists are some of the unhappiest people I've ever met in my entire life.[/size][/QUOTE]

I'm quite content, and I'm an athiest. So, I don't know who you've been talking to, but they sound like kill joys. A lot of emo highschool kids claim to be athiests to get themselves attention... they're losers.

There are some athiests that give us all a bad name, just like some religious groups give people of faith a bad name. There's no one unified voice that speaks for the ideals of a people. Some of the spokesman are good, and some we wish would just stop talking.

One thing that doesn't work is using the same shameless tactics that some religious groups have used in the past. Stooping to the level of those people doesn't make athiests look very good, though the bitterness and frustration is understandable. If athiesm is going to be embraced it must be seen in a positive light, not as another greedy organization that'll do anything to get your membership.

I don't think anyone should advertise (we're not selling vacuum cleaners here); not athiests, not christians, no one. But that's just not going to happen. People want you to believe what they believe, it's the way of the world.

[quote name='Sangome'][SIZE="1"]
But upon closer inspection and reading the other posts, yeah, the ad itself seems kinda like a shot towards people with faith...[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

The problem with any ad by any group of differing ideals is that you're going to offend someone. I don't particularly enjoy seeing christian advertisements, but I realize it's the way things are right now, so if believers are going to advertise, I can't blame athiests for doing the same.

The ad isn't even that harsh: "God [I]probably[/I] doesn't exist".

[Shy]

[quote name='Mr. Blonde']I'm quite content, and I'm an athiest. So, I don't know who you've been talking to, but they sound like kill joys. A lot of emo highschool kids claim to be athiests to get themselves attention... they're losers.[/QUOTE][size=1]In my experience, they are. Prove me wrong, though!

I'm Agnostic myself, and quite content.

-Shy[/size]

[TheShinje]

As a Christian I welcome these bus adverts, they get the discussions on faith, God and the meaning of life stirred up, and that can be a good thing.

The message is a pretty light hearted one, which doesn't come across as harsh or belittling, and many 'Christian' advert designers could take a page from this.

Instead of scaring people (or attempting to) by preaching about hellfire endlessly, we should be preaching that which matters most. Jesus, loves you, he loves you so much that he came to take your sin and die for you, in the hope that you'll accept this offer and recieve life everlasting. In true spirit led Christianity, this is the core message. In my pentecostal-based church, I've heard hell get mentioned all of one time.

A Christian billboard that says 'Jesus loves you - turn to him and enjoy life' would be more effective than 'you're going to HELL, REPENT!!1!1':animesmil

[chibi-master]

[quote name='Manic Webb']Atheists, continue doing what you do. If you're right, then none of us will care when we die. If you're wrong, then I seriously doubt a loving God would punish you just because you refused to be scared by "You're Going to Hell" Website #734,466.[/QUOTE]

This sums up my opinion on the subject. :catgirl:

Hey, I've got no problem with the advertisement! Heck, I thought it was funny, and I'm Catholic, though not devout.

[TimeChaser]

I think it's a harmless exercise of our freedoms. :)

I too am atheist, and I don't see anything wrong with this, nor do I see it as "pushing belief" on anyone, because 1) Atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of belief in god/gods and the supernatural, and 2) Placing some ads on a bus is hardly getting in someone's face about it, unlike people going door-to-door preaching at you. All this is is opening up room for discussion.

[Tophel]

[quote name='NinjaGirlSango']I'm an atheist, and therefore terribly biased, but if churches can display a link to a website that says "you're going to hell" instead of "you're probably going to hell", why must an atheist ad include the "probably"?[/QUOTE]

Because the statement is on the website and not in the ad itself? I thikn that is fair enough.

I agree with Shy that the majority of atheists, in my experience as well, are more cynical/jaded/unhappy than their religious counterparts. This doesn't mean that I haven't met a happy atheist (I have) or an unhappy Christian (many times). But there seems, IMO, something intrinsic in human nature that requires we have some sort of 'spiritual' side. At least that is the only reason to me to explain why 95%+ of the world's population, even today with all the advances in science and communications and travel, are religious in some way even if they are not devout.

By the way, is it just me or does Richard Dawkins have some massive chip on his shoulder about religions? He comes across to me as a smug mean and grumpy guy. I love the South Park episodes. Heheh.

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Tophel']By the way, is it just me or does Richard Dawkins have some massive chip on his shoulder about religions? He comes across to me as a smug mean and grumpy guy. I love the South Park episodes. Heheh.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't take a full personality profile of Richard on just a South park episode; they send up EVERYONE.

I have been reading his books, and he's a very intelligent and thoughtful person and makes a lot of good arguments. Plus, he isn't just some hack, he's an evolutionary biologist and most of his books are about evolution. [I]The God Delusion[/I] is only his most recent book, but he has been an atheist for most of his life.

The issue is this: religion has somehow achieved this charmed status where people are allowed to get very offended if someone is at all critical of it. Richard and his contemporaries want to put religion on the table of rational criticism, and allow us to discuss it open and freely in the same we we debate politics and music and any other intellectual subjects.

There are very good reasons people give up their religions or never believe in the first place, and we'd like to discuss those reasons rationally.

[Darren]

[quote name='TimeChaser']I think it's a harmless exercise of our freedoms. :)

I too am atheist, and I don't see anything wrong with this, nor do I see it as "pushing belief" on anyone, because 1) Atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of belief in god/gods and the supernatural, and 2) Placing some ads on a bus is hardly getting in someone's face about it, unlike people going door-to-door preaching at you. All this is is opening up room for discussion.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="1"]Well I'll disagree with you on point 1. I'm atheist; I [B]believe[/B] that God doesn't exist. Furthermore, if atheism isn't a belief, then why would they bother to advertise. They shouldn't care.
Point 2: I slightly agree. I don't think it's necessarily shoving beliefs on others... But my whole point is that atheists shouldn't have to advertise. They shouldn't care because they're not a religion... By advertising on the buses, they're defeating the whole idea behind atheism.[/SIZE]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Tophel'] At least that is the only reason to me to explain why 95%+ of the world's population, even today with all the advances in science and communications and travel, are religious in some way even if they are not devout.
[/QUOTE]

Because it's easy to say you're religious. Most people who claim to believe in God only say so because it's politically incorrect to be an athiest. These are the people that dread going to church once a year. If you're going to be lazy about religion, what's the point? Do we give brownie points to people who just claim to believe in something, or just don't care enough to believe in anything else? Of this 95% number, the number of true believers is I'm sure much lower.

I'm not saying there aren't people who do believe in God, and I can respect those people who are devout, because they care about their faith enough to actually practice what they preach, but these part time christians... pathetic.


[quote name='Tophel']
By the way, is it just me or does Richard Dawkins have some massive chip on his shoulder about religions? He comes across to me as a smug mean and grumpy guy. I love the South Park episodes. Heheh.[/QUOTE]

The man believes there is no God, so because he insists it he has a chip of his shoulder? What of someone who insists there is a God, do they as well? If so the catholic church is rocking mt everest.

If someone believes in something that you do not it's easy to think they are arrogant or foolish for believing it, it's easier than to actually understand their point of view and acknowledge it.

If you haven't read Dawkin's works, Tophel, I suggest you do. I've read the bible, the torah, and the qur'an. I've studied Buddhism and Hinduism (not bragging). In order to say you don't believe in something you have to fully understand it first.

Spoon fed belief is unfortunate and ignorant.

(Why are these religious threads always Timechaser and I against the world? Though I do see we have somemore folks on our side this time, cheers.)

[Tophel]

[quote name='TimeChaser']I wouldn't take a full personality profile of Richard on just a South park episode; they send up EVERYONE.[/quote]

:rotflmao:

No I've seen his documentaries and interviews. He seems a little obssessed with convincing everyone that he is right. An overabundance of ego combined with a lack of empathy.

[quote name='TimeChaser']
The issue is this: religion has somehow achieved this charmed status where people are allowed to get very offended if someone is at all critical of it. Richard and his contemporaries want to put religion on the table of rational criticism, and allow us to discuss it open and freely in the same we we debate politics and music and any other intellectual subjects.[/quote]

Well actually I would have to disagree. He doesn't really want to engage in any sort of debate/discussion. He would rather lecture. Like priests lecture us about sin, Hell and fire and brimstone, only he lectures about evolution and the evils of religion. Same pulpit, same tone, just a different message. I consider him a secular fundamentalist.

[quote name='Mr. Blonde']
The man believes there is no God, so because he insists it he has a chip of his shoulder? What of someone who insists there is a God, do they as well?[/QUOTE]

Yep. They're called Bible thumpers. :animesmil

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I can't view that article because I'm not registered with NY Times, but in terms of advertising atheism...my personal feeling is that it's just as open to advertising as anything else.

As has been pointed out, if religious groups can advertise/promote their agenda, so too can atheist groups. I'm assuming that although atheists as a whole aren't part of one defined organization, there are probably still quite a few individual atheist "groups" who try to push their own ideas.

I just view it as free speech, I guess. They have no less or greater right than anyone else, nor should they.

As far as Richard Dawkins goes, I've kind of been interested in reading The God Delusion, but I'm not sure if it's really worthwhile. This debate just makes me more interested.

I [i]have[/i] read Ian Plimer's "Telling Lies for God", which is a brilliant book. It's also definitely not an atheist book.

In any case, Dawkins obviously has a point to make and he tries to make that forcefully. I see nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean he's angry or has a chip on his shoulder necessarily - I think it could simply mean that he's passionate about his views on the subject.

And that's totally fine. He certainly has that right. It's then our choice whether we pay attention or not! :catgirl:[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='James][font=franklin gothic medium']I can't view that article because I'm not registered with NY Times[/font][/quote]It must be because you're in Australia since I'm not registered and have no issue viewing it. Here's a link to something in your area that also covers it: [URL="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24884283-26040,00.html"][U]Article[/U][/URL] And here's a link to the image that was in NY Times article. [URL="http://i43.tinypic.com/111jfat.jpg"][U]Bus[/U][/URL]

[James]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']It must be because you're in Australia since I'm not registered and have no issue viewing it. Here's a link to something in your area that also covers it: [URL="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24884283-26040,00.html"][U]Article[/U][/URL] And here's a link to the image that was in NY Times article. [URL="http://i43.tinypic.com/111jfat.jpg"][U]Bus[/U][/URL][/QUOTE]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Ah, thank you. I just read The Australian piece.

To me it sounds fine, especially given the depressing and unnecessary religious message that prompted it!

It does sound fairly light-hearted, which is good. I don't think it should be taken too seriously.

It's just a nice example of how free speech works. Just as much as one group has the right to advertise something, so too do others. [/font]

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]I'm just amused that this obvious statement of confidence and initiative has our resident atheist members still as bitter about the issue as ever, even though the only responder so far who has had a problem with the slogans is an acknowledged atheist himself. ([COLOR="DarkRed"]Raiha[/COLOR] aside, of course. We all know how happy her posts are. :animesmil)

What I wonder is how many people the news reporter had to interview to find someone who was that deeply offended by the slogans. If you let your dander get riled by someone telling you to doubt your own convictions 1) what the devil is wrong with you, and 2) are your convictions really that strong to begin with?

I'm going to agree with [COLOR="DarkRed"]Shy[/COLOR] about the unhappy bit, though. Most proclaimed atheists I have met in person seem perpetually defensive, especially once they know I'm Christian—at which point I always feel like they're waiting for me to grab a Bible and attack them (as reference or physically; I can never tell). Really depressing to be around.

Actually, I found the slogans to be rather clever. My favorite was this one:
[INDENT][I]“Atheism: Sleep in on Sunday mornings,”[/I][/INDENT]
I admit it. I snerked. :animesmil[/FONT]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Darren'][SIZE="1"]Well I'll disagree with you on point 1. I'm atheist; I [B]believe[/B] that God doesn't exist. Furthermore, if atheism isn't a belief, then why would they bother to advertise. They shouldn't care.
Point 2: I slightly agree. I don't think it's necessarily shoving beliefs on others... But my whole point is that atheists shouldn't have to advertise. They shouldn't care because they're not a religion... By advertising on the buses, they're defeating the whole idea behind atheism.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I'd rather say "I don't believe in God" than "I believe God does not exist." And they're not advertising atheism like they're trying to market it, they just want people to think critically, and the point is there isn't a lot of critical thinking and self-examination going within religion. If you actually read religious texts with a critical eye and without predetermined beliefs, it doesn't take long to notice inconsistencies, contradictions, and a lot of abject and horrible crimes committed either in the name of God or by his order.

There's also the need to critically think about how much of a book like the Bible is true history and how much is just fable.

[QUOTE=Tophel]No I've seen his documentaries and interviews. He seems a little obssessed with convincing everyone that he is right. An overabundance of ego combined with a lack of empathy.
...

Well actually I would have to disagree. He doesn't really want to engage in any sort of debate/discussion. He would rather lecture. Like priests lecture us about sin, Hell and fire and brimstone, only he lectures about evolution and the evils of religion. Same pulpit, same tone, just a different message. I consider him a secular fundamentalist.[/QUOTE]

He's not an egotist at all and neither does he lack empathy. He's just trying to point out the inconsistencies and contradictions in religion which people who have been indoctrinated since childhood are either unable or unwilling to investigate.

You can't equate him at all to a preacher, I'm sorry. There is a difference between offering people to take a look at the evidence and telling them "Believe in this because it says so in this book."

No atheists, including Dawkins, are fundamentalist. There is no doctrine or dogma for us to be fundamentalist about. We don't go around blowing up people to get to heaven or shooting doctors at abortion clinics.