Time to end Black History Month?

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]Tell me something about Songhai you learned in school. Now tell me something you learned about ancient Rome.

Tell me something about Mali you learned in school. Now tell me something you learned about ancient Greece.

This is just a cursory example of what schools neglect to teach. I'm actually a bit surprised you don't readily acknowledge the academic bias that exists for pro-West history and the strange disappearance of most other histories. I bet you can label a map of western Europe correctly, but not of sub-Saharan or west Africa. It's no poor reflection on [i]you[/i], but on the systemic problem that exists in schools and America at large.

It's a problem that transcends individual teachers, because this problem is nationwide. It's not a few select racist teachers or anything. It's not a few mean people. It's just everyone doesn't bother with African history for whatever reason. So to suggest we "replace them with someone else" is a suggestion that misses the enormity of the problem. Rather, we have to change the academic curricula that exist in schools across the nation.

Since none of that is happening, or will happen in the foreseeable future, I support Black History Month.[/font][/QUOTE]I know you’re talking to Darren Retri, but I’m going to take you up on this.

What did you want to know about Songhai other than it was one of the largest African empires in history? What did you want to know about Rome other than it is considered one of the founding cities of Western Civilization and one of the few major European cities that escaped World War II with little to no damage?

What did you want to know about Mali other than it was once part of three African empires that controlled trade and that in the 1800’s it fell under French control? What did you want to know about Greece other than it fought against the Ottoman Empire to gain independence back in the 1800’s?

Perhaps I just had a better history teacher than what people get today. If Darren is calling into question individual teachers, then I’m going to assume this is from the standpoint of having one who was more through, I know mine was.

I have another suggestion and it’s exactly what the article was talking about. Having a month to emphasize Black History doesn’t change the fact that as a whole, history is being neglected. Yes you mention this as well, but having that month changes nothing when the entire system needs an overhaul.

I’d be more inclined to support a change in the current national curriculum than to continue supporting an outdated month deal that does little to address the real problem.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']What did you want to know about Songhai other than it was one of the largest African empires in history? What did you want to know about Rome other than it is considered one of the founding cities of Western Civilization and one of the few major European cities that escaped World War II with little to no damage?

What did you want to know about Mali other than it was once part of three African empires that controlled trade and that in the 1800?s it fell under French control? What did you want to know about Greece other than it fought against the Ottoman Empire to gain independence back in the 1800?s?[/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]I guess Google really is magic.[/font]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]I guess Google really is magic.[/font][/QUOTE]That was really beneath you hun and uncalled for. Are you so sold on everyone is ignorant about history that you have to resort to insults?

[eleanor]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']I know you?re talking to Darren Retri, but I?m going to take you up on this.

What did you want to know about Songhai other than it was one of the largest African empires in history? What did you want to know about Rome other than it is considered one of the founding cities of Western Civilization and one of the few major European cities that escaped World War II with little to no damage?

What did you want to know about Mali other than it was once part of three African empires that controlled trade and that in the 1800?s it fell under French control? What did you want to know about Greece other than it fought against the Ottoman Empire to gain independence back in the 1800?s?

Perhaps I just had a better history teacher than what people get today. If Darren is calling into question individual teachers, then I?m going to assume this is from the standpoint of having one who was more through, I know mine was.

I have another suggestion and it?s exactly what the article was talking about. Having a month to emphasize Black History doesn?t change the fact that as a whole, history is being neglected. Yes you mention this as well, but having that month changes nothing when the entire system needs an overhaul.

I?d be more inclined to support a change in the current national curriculum than to continue supporting an outdated month deal that does little to address the real problem.[/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] I'm still pretty sure the majority of high school students have no idea what Songhai and Mali are. I didn't know what they were, and I went to a well-respected high school.

And the point of Black History Month goes beyond African history. It also focuses on the achievements and influences that blacks have had on US history- which is far greater than any other minority group. I see no qualms with celebrating this, and I don't find it outdated. To be short, I feel that people who think having Black History Month implies that "black history" is more important than "white history" are being overly sensitive and can't view it as simply a month to celebrate black achievements.

One might ask why there isn't a white history month- it's because in school you learn about a lot of the major achievements of white people. And let's face it, US history is mostly about white people. The US is mostly made up of white people. Having white history month in the US would be like celebrating "breathing is healthy" month. [/font]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Lunox][font=trebuchet ms'] I'm still pretty sure the majority of high school students have no idea what Songhai and Mali are. I didn't know what they were, and I went to a well-respected high school.[/font][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]That is her point. [I]She[/I] knows, and yet [I]we[/I] do not. Obviously the system and its standards have degenerated.



[COLOR="DarkRed"]Retribution[/COLOR], learn to hold your tongue.[/FONT]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]That is her point. [I]She[/I] knows, and yet [I]we[/I] do not. Obviously the system and its standards have degenerated.
[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms]My b. My major point still stands, though, I think Black History Month is fine... to me the point of Black History Month is not to celebrate African history but the achievements and influences blacks in America have had on the US.[/font]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms]
One might ask why there isn't a white history month- it's because in school you learn about a lot of the major achievements of white people. And let's face it, US history is mostly about white people. The US is mostly made up of white people. Having white history month in the US would be like celebrating "breathing is healthy" month. [/font][/QUOTE]
Exactly.

Here's a link which might be illuminating for those who wonder what the big deal is:

[url="http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html"][u]White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack[/u][/url]

It's 101-level stuff, but it's always surprising how many people haven't encountered it.

~Dagger~

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Strange, I know those things that you linked to Dagger, because someone tried to shove that nonsense down my throat in a 101 course. Because I am half white I was told that I had white privilege but somehow that didn't help me get into college any easier than any of my other friends.

I still had to work to earn what I have and my race had nothing to do with it. Professors in colleges all over the country try to impose WHITE GUILT on people who never owned slaves, profited from owning slaves, or oppressed black people in any possible way. I have white ancestors, but those white ancestors were looked down on by other groups of white ancestors as badly as black people. Ask the American Irish how they felt or the Jewish and German immigrants. Black History Month is just another reminder that small screaming annoying groups of people will get what they want regardless of what the majority thinks.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Strange, I know those things that you linked to Dagger, because someone tried to shove that nonsense down my throat in a 101 course. Because I am half white I was told that I had white privilege but somehow that didn't help me get into college any easier than any of my other friends.

I still had to work to earn what I have and my race had nothing to do with it. Professors in colleges all over the country try to impose WHITE GUILT on people who never owned slaves, profited from owning slaves, or oppressed black people in any possible way. I have white ancestors, but those white ancestors were looked down on by other groups of white ancestors as badly as black people. Ask the American Irish how they felt or the Jewish and German immigrants. Black History Month is just another reminder that small screaming annoying groups of people will get what they want regardless of what the majority thinks.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms]I don't think it's nonsense at all. I believe a lot of times it's exaggerated and blown up to be more than it is, but I don't doubt for a second that being white can give often times give you an edge.

Also it's interesting that you bring up college- it's almost reversed in college admissions. Being white or Asian is almost a disadvantage, while being black, Hispanic, Native Americans, etc. will give you an advantage. Something that annoys me to this day still....lol

But no, I don't think the idea of white privilege is irrelevant. As an Asian who grew up in a white, affluent, suburb of Atlanta, I've constantly experienced feelings of jealousy towards white people for being white. I can't describe my feeling in any concrete way, and I don't really have any business applying my personal experiences and projecting them as a national problem, but it's my opinion on the matter.

It's unfair to label Black History Month as a something that granted because of a "small screaming annoying [group] of people". I appreciate what it's trying to accomplish, which is bringing light to achievements/influences of black people. I don't think anyone believes "black history" is more important because of their exposure to Black History Month. [/font]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]There's a reason jealousy is a deadly sin. It's like tailgating on the highway. Doesn't get you any closer to your destination any faster, and you'll lose everything.

There is no reason you should be jealous of white people simply because they might have worked hard or had others in their life who worked hard for their benefit. It's not an advantage to be white these days any more than it's an advantage to have two working feet. To say that it's only white people who get a free pass is intellectually dishonest.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]There's a reason jealousy is a deadly sin. It's like tailgating on the highway. Doesn't get you any closer to your destination any faster, and you'll lose everything.

There is no reason you should be jealous of white people simply because they might have worked hard or had others in their life who worked hard for their benefit. It's not an advantage to be white these days any more than it's an advantage to have two working feet. To say that it's only white people who get a free pass is intellectually dishonest.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] I'm not saying that being white gives you a free pass. Nor am I saying rich, white people don't deserve their lifestyle or doubting that they didn't work hard. But do I believe immigrants have to work harder a lot of times? Yes.

What I'm saying is that there is a cultural connotation that comes with being white. You are treated differently by certain people, and generally these certain people are people of power. It could also be more relevant for me, since I live in the deep South.[/font]

[AbbeyLiz]

What makes me mad, is that we have a Black History Month, but not a Native American History Month, or Gay History Month (or Gay Current Happening Month? lol) or anything else.

I think, since America is all about freedom and equality, why do we emphasize one group and not the others that were/are discriminated against?

[Retribution]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial][COLOR="DarkRed"]Retribution[/COLOR], learn to hold your tongue.[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]I called her on it, and now she's indignant.

Further, she chose to overlook the relatively elementary point that [i]education in the US is heavily eurocentric and fails to teach "black history" outside of slavery and MLK.[/i] It was a rhetorical exercise to drive home the point our education problem is not only massively biased, it's systemically problematic. We've passed the point where we can just hire new teachers - it would require an almost entire recall on teachers nationwide.[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Retribution][font=Arial]I called her on it, and now she's indignant.

Further, she chose to overlook the relatively elementary point that [i]education in the US is heavily eurocentric and fails to teach "black history" outside of slavery and MLK.[/i] It was a rhetorical exercise to drive home the point our education problem is not only massively biased, it's systemically problematic. We've passed the point where we can just hire new teachers - it would require an almost entire recall on teachers nationwide.[/font][/QUOTE]You need to re-read the thread. Aaryanna Mom was in favor of replacing the current curriculum not the actual teachers. She's rightfully questioning why you're being a jackass to her when [U][I][B]I'm[/B][/I] the one who suggested replacing teachers not Aaryanna Mom[/U] I think even you should be smart enough to grasp that teaching was different when she was in High School. Which was before most of us were even born.

In that light, your post was unnecessarily rude and I'll ask you to not post that kind of crap again. Plus you still missed my point to begin with. If teachers have the stuff in their curriculum and they're not teaching it... what does that tell you?

Either they do, or they don't. If they do and they aren't covering it, then that's a fail on the teacher's part. If it's not in the curriculum then like Aaryanna Mom suggested at the end of her post, that needs an overhaul.

[James]

[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]It's a problem that transcends individual teachers, because this problem is nationwide. It's not a few select racist teachers or anything. It's not a few mean people. It's just everyone doesn't bother with African history for whatever reason. So to suggest we "replace them with someone else" is a suggestion that misses the enormity of the problem. Rather, we have to change the academic curricula that exist in schools across the nation.
[/font][/QUOTE]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Actually I'd say that describing the problem as racism is really a mischaracterization.

The American education system is renouned globally for largely ignoring anything that isn't American. I'm sure there's some study of Greek or Roman history for example, but there seems to be very little emphasis on global issues generally. This then extends to the American media, which is generally painfully ignorant and utterly disinterested about global affairs.

So I'd say one issue compounds the other. It's why so many Americans can't even seem to point to Australia on a map - never mind that it's an entire continent. lol

This is why I'd suggest that it's not necessarily a racist issue, it's actually bigger than that.

Also just as a side point, if you look at education through that lense - in other words, if you think about making all education American-centric - then the skew makes a lot of sense.

I mean, if history classes are American-centric then it makes sense to only really discuss Rome or Greece when talking about ancient civilizations. Why? Because these civilizations are directly linked with modern western democracies in a variety of ways.

I'd submit that it's not only Africa being ignored, but also the Middle East, Asia and pretty much everywhere else.[/font]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='James][font=franklin gothic medium']The American education system is renouned globally for largely ignoring anything that isn't American.[/font][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Bam. Seriously, I know precisely Jack Dit about anything outside the States. And we're complaining/arguing about certain facets and details that might be getting ignored?

Feh. Guess I should be serious now.

Part of the reason there doesn't seem to be much emphasis on the contributions of the Negro community to US history is that the US is a still relatively new. We haven't had [I]time[/I] for our history to develop to such an extent to be able to include everyone fairly?and even then, at the formation of our country we were still basically European (didn't identify ourselves as US Citizens until some point [I]after[/I] the Revolution), and Europe at that time was still plagued with the mindset that black people were inferior, so quite obviously nothing given by Negroes at that point would be taken seriously.

The fact that we even [I]have[/I] a Black History Month is testament in itself.

As far as the "why isn't there a white history month" . . . so far, I'm pretty sure everyone who's brought that line up has been facetious about it. I'd kinda like to see the snipping about that die down, 'cause most of us white folk don't really care about having a month of focus on our own history.

As for other ethnicities 'not needing' their own history month . . . no one really needs one. So why not have one for the other guys? It certainly wouldn't hurt no one. Then again, this is the US. We're supposed to be a [I]melting pot[/I] of culture. Celebrating individual facets is by no means wrong . . . but shouldn't we also look at people who work together without care about racial/ethnic differences? We're all the same dang people, after all.[/FONT]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Lunox][font=trebuchet ms]I'm still pretty sure the majority of high school students have no idea what Songhai and Mali are. I didn't know what they were, and I went to a well-respected high school. [/font][/QUOTE]I'm well aware of this. And yet I did point out that perhaps my history teacher was better since we're talking about High School kids from over thirty years ago. I haven't had a world history class since back in the late sixties early seventies. [QUOTE=Lunox][font=trebuchet ms]One might ask why there isn't a white history month- it's because in school you learn about a lot of the major achievements of white people. And let's face it, US history is mostly about white people. The US is mostly made up of white people. Having white history month in the US would be like celebrating "breathing is healthy" month. [/font][/QUOTE]The thing is, other than one tongue in cheek statement by Vicky, not one person here has even brought this up other than to preemptively [I]slam[/I] someone who may or may not suggest it. So I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with that since the suggestion here is that it's a comprehensive history, not do away with one aspect to replace it with another. [QUOTE=Retribution][font=Arial']I called her on it, and now she's indignant. [/font][/quote]Called me on what? On taking World History classes when I was in High School? On only remembering fairly obvious facts since that class was back from before you were born? On attempting to understand where Rach was coming from? On agreeing with you that the current curriculum has issues?

Make no mistake Retri, the only thing I'm indignant over is your appalling lack of manners and shoddy reading skills. You're reprimanding me over[I] someone else's [/I]stance instead of my own which actually agreed with yours. If anything, that only reinforces my sentiment that education today, isn't what it was back when I was a teen.[quote name='Retribution][font=Arial]Further, she chose to overlook the relatively elementary point that [i]education in the US is heavily eurocentric and fails to teach "black history" outside of slavery and MLK.[/i'] It was a rhetorical exercise to drive home the point our education problem is not only massively biased, it's systemically problematic. We've passed the point where we can just hire new teachers - it would require an almost entire recall on teachers nationwide.[/font][/quote]Like Rach already said, pay attention to who says what. I suggested that our current national curriculum is inadequate and incidentally fails to cover all aspects of history, including Black History. I didn't suggest replacing the teachers.

I think the month is a bit pointless because it's origins started before even I was born and yet people are still not being given a more in-depth education. If something hasn't made a difference in over half a century, then it's pretty obvious that it's just a flashy deal that fixes nothing.

[James]

[quote]Part of the reason there doesn't seem to be much emphasis on the contributions of the Negro community to US history is that the US is a still relatively new. We haven't had time for our history to develop to such an extent to be able to include everyone fairly?and even then, at the formation of our country we were still basically European (didn't identify ourselves as US Citizens until some point after the Revolution), and Europe at that time was still plagued with the mindset that black people were inferior, so quite obviously nothing given by Negroes at that point would be taken seriously.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I don't think your country's youth is a reason for neglecting aspects of its own history though.

My country is incredibly young - Australia was first settled in the 1770's and the different colonies (which were rather like independent countries) did not federate until 1901.

And yet you'll find that fairly large segments of both primary (elementary) and secondary school curriculum deal with studies of aborigines and aboriginal culture/history.

In some respects the situation is not comparable to African-Americans, because the circumstances surrounding white relations with both of these groups is very different. Having said that, we are certainly very far off having an aboriginal Prime Minister - so the United States has taken another leap forward in equality yet again.

As far as a white history month, or whatever it's being referred to as here... I agree that such a suggestion could only be made in a facetious way. Surely the answer as to why you wouldn't have a white history month is blatantly obvious.

Without really knowing, I suspect that a lot of black people may value Black History Month for the very reason that they feel neglected within the general history curriculum. I really can't fault that as a motivation.

Moreover, I would guess that for those people who are descendants of slaves, history and a sense of identity are even [i]more[/i] important. And thus, Black History Month probably serves a significant purpose there.

At the end of the day it's obviously a non-issue for me because I'm not American, but just as an intellectual issue, I really have no objection to Black History Month or the idea behind it.

I mean as others have pointed out, there are a million days or months dedicated to one cause or another. If that doesn't interest the rest of us, then fine - and perhaps that's the point anyway. But if a group of people feel that such a celebration is important, then I really can't complain about it.

To each his own is the bottom line for me, I guess.[/font]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']The thing is, other than one tongue in cheek statement by Vicky, not one person here has even brought this up other than to preemptively [I]slam[/I] someone who may or may not suggest it. So I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with that since the suggestion here is that it's a comprehensive history, not do away with one aspect to replace it with another. [/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] Both Vicky and Raiha brought up the idea that having a black history month seems like saying "black history" is more important than the rest of history. They both also brought up the idea of white history month. My arguments against white history month were a natural extension of my response. Please stop calling out others on "shoddy reading skills" when you make similar mistakes. Pulling the "I'm older than you" chain and inserting phrases like "before you were born" to assert authority ultimately undermines it.
[/font]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Lunox][font=trebuchet ms'] Both Vicky and Raiha brought up the idea that having a black history month seems like saying "black history" is more important than the rest of history. They both also brought up the idea of white history month. My arguments against white history month were a natural extension of my response. [/font][/quote]Actually that's not entirely correct, someone else brought it up before her and this was her response:[QUOTE=Raiha][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"][U]Why shouldn't there be[/U]? The achievements of white people are just as important. Madame Curie, Albert Einstein, The inventor of the Model T Ford? Black history IS better than white history if we're oozing all over a special group as if they're more exciting than the rest of the old dead white guys.

[U]But if we have black history month, why not have Asian History month? Indian History Month?[/U] I'd like to spend time revisiting all the glorious things Chinese civilization brought to the world. Gunpowder, Earthquake Detectors, writing, noodles.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]All she said was why not and then suggested other stuff besides 'white history'. Then you came along and pretty much implied such a thing wasn't worth consideration since they didn't contribute as much.[quote name='Lunox][font=trebuchet ms] We don't have Asian History month in the US because the impact Asians have had on US history and culture is almost insignificant when compared to the impact black people have had. Same with Native Americans. I realize we treated them terribly and we ****** them over, but their culture and achievements did not have a huge impact on what the US is today. Just to clarify, I'm not trying to say other minority groups didn't contribute to what the US is today, just that none of them contributed nearly as much as blacks did. And to my knowledge black history month isn't really acknowledged outside of the US (correct me if I'm wrong).[/font][/QUOTE]History shouldn't be about who did the most though it's unavoidable that you will focus more on one because of that. The bottom line is teaching it as accurately as possible is what matters. But I've covered this ground already. [QUOTE=Lunox][font=trebuchet ms'] Please stop calling out others on "shoddy reading skills" when you make similar mistakes. Pulling the "I'm older than you" chain and inserting phrases like "before you were born" to assert authority ultimately undermines it. [/font][/quote]I never said I didn't make mistakes and I can and will call someone out if they're being unnecessarily rude, especially when it's because they didn't pay attention.

I'm sorry you see the before you were born bit as an attempt to assert authority, when it's to illustrate that he completely missed that my points were relevant to how teaching was done when I was a teenager.

I'll say it again, the notion of black history month started long before I was born and yet we still have a systematic problem of it barely being touched upon. Please try to focus on what I'm saying instead of looking for insults.

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]I'll try to be brief; I get the funny feeling no one really wants to hear me. :p

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']You need to re-read the thread. Aaryanna Mom was in favor of replacing the current curriculum not the actual teachers. She's rightfully questioning why you're being a jackass to her when [U][I][B]I'm[/B][/I] the one who suggested replacing teachers not Aaryanna Mom[/U] I think even you should be smart enough to grasp that teaching was different when she was in High School. Which was before most of us were even born.[/QUOTE]
No, I do understand who said what. My comment was originally to you, she interjected, and in my following response I simultaneously addressed the both of you. I didn't really think this was very cryptic or complex - obviously when two sources need to be addressed, I'll do it in the same post. Sorry if it seemed like I mixed up posters.

Furthermore, all this semantic hoopla has failed to address my points. Everyone got mad at me and didn't respond to my points, choosing instead to yell about my comment.

The best part of your comment is about how teaching "was different" in the 60s. I find this hilarious, because yes, it was indeed quite different. Teaching in the 60s was [i]even more eurocentric, biased, whitewashed, and ignorant of African achievement[/i]. It stands to reason that, if most kids haven't learned about it in 2009, how the hell would they have heard about it in the bitterly violent, racialized times of the 60s? And in the midwest? I'm pretty sure she's from Utah, which would be even more homogenized than the rest of the nation. To assert she got this education in this environment is hilarious.

[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]Actually I'd say that describing the problem as racism is really a mischaracterization.

The American education system is renouned globally for largely ignoring anything that isn't American.[/font][/QUOTE]
Well, I didn't assert it was a problem of racism. But I also find the claim that the issue is "American" or "non-American" to be wrong. Blacks have been American and quite intimately linked to America for hundreds of years, so to say curricula ignore only the non-American is problematic. I'd say it's just simple eurocentrism - in American academic institutions, higher and lower, the "great works" are generally European or American and are studied in great depth. Other histories are summarily dismissed for whatever reason.

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']I'm well aware of this. And yet I did point out that perhaps my history teacher was better since we're talking about High School kids from over thirty years ago. I haven't had a world history class since back in the late sixties early seventies.[/QUOTE]
Here's the thing. I posed rhetorical questions to get at a larger point - that western education ignores other great civilizations. I'll go out on a limb and say 80 to 90% of the members here had no idea what Songhai or Mali were.

But rather than acknowledge the greater point I was making about biased western education, you chose to answer these questions. And now you're claiming you learned about them in a high school world history class you took 30 to 40 years ago.

I bet most people in this thread forgot the vast majority of what they learned last year, let alone decades ago. I bet most people haven't studied Africa outside of it's relation to the west via slavery. And I bet, considering all this, you looked up all this information to look smart and cute, to overlook the most important point I was making a page ago. For all your indignation about me not "paying attention," you sure as hell haven't paid attention to the point I originally made.

And look, I'll be honest. It doesn't take a genius to look up Mali and Songhai on Wikipedia, read the summary paragraph at the beginning of each article, and post it here. If you care to look on those respective pages, the information you gleaned is in those paragraphs.

This entire thing is hilarious. You claim to have learned (ABOUT AFRICA) something in a time where America was horrendously divided by race, where white superiority was asserted across the nation, and black achievement was massively undermined by these dynamics. Pardon me for not taking your original "knowledge" seriously.[/font]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Retribution][font=Arial]The best part of your comment is about how teaching "was different" in the 60s. I find this hilarious, because yes, it was indeed quite different. Teaching in the 60s was [i]even more eurocentric, biased, whitewashed, and ignorant of African achievement[/i']. It stands to reason that, if most kids haven't learned about it in 2009, how the hell would they have heard about it in the bitterly violent, racialized times of the 60s? And in the midwest? I'm pretty sure she's from Utah, which would be even more homogenized than the rest of the nation. To assert she got this education in this environment is hilarious.[/font][/quote]I was born and raised in Texas, not Utah, I didn't move here until after I got married. Ironically, Utah is more forward about teaching black history than Texas so that line or reasoning is pretty pointless. Also how do you think the push came about for more comprehensive learning in the first place? From people, including history teachers, who felt like the current deal didn't cover enough. The class may have been pretty basic, but that didn't stop teachers from trying to cover more than just the mainstream white history. [QUOTE=Retribution][font=Arial]Here's the thing. I posed rhetorical questions to get at a larger point - that western education ignores other great civilizations. I'll go out on a limb and say 80 to 90% of the members here had no idea what Songhai or Mali were.

But rather than acknowledge the greater point I was making about biased western education, you chose to answer these questions. And now you're claiming you learned about them in a high school world history class you took 30 to 40 years ago.

I bet most people in this thread forgot the vast majority of what they learned last year, let alone decades ago. I bet most people haven't studied Africa outside of it's relation to the west via slavery. And I bet, considering all this, you looked up all this information to look smart and cute, to overlook the most important point I was making a page ago. For all your indignation about me not "paying attention," you sure as hell haven't paid attention to the point I originally made.

And look, I'll be honest. It doesn't take a genius to look up Mali and Songhai on Wikipedia, read the summary paragraph at the beginning of each article, and post it here. If you care to look on those respective pages, the information you gleaned is in those paragraphs.

This entire thing is hilarious. You claim to have learned (ABOUT AFRICA) something in a time where America was horrendously divided by race, where white superiority was asserted across the nation, and black achievement was massively undermined by these dynamics. Pardon me for not taking your original "knowledge" seriously.[/font][/QUOTE]I find your cynicsm rather sad actually since you're pretty much painting the picture that no one else ever cared or tried to improve the system and when I said differently, you instead you fell back on cheap shots in my direction.

Just as you think no one wants to listen to you, I get the feeling that you've convinced yourself that I'm just lying to look cute. That makes having any form of a debate pointless when one side insists that the other is lying.

I'm not in here to gain your belief, but if all you're going to do is keep insisting I'm wrong or deliberately lying, then there's no point in continuing.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']I was born and raised in Texas, not Utah, I didn't move here until after I got married [...][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]Then it gets even better! You were in [i]Texas[/i] of all places - I'm certain it was quite a progressive, forward-looking place in the 60s. And I would guess a state as racially welcoming would have definitely taught all this.

I mean, if you had said Massachusetts or something I would've been more obliged to believe.[/font]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][QUOTE=Retribution][font=Arial]Then it gets even better! You were in [i]Texas[/i] of all places - I'm certain it was quite a progressive, forward-looking place in the 60s. And I would guess a state as racially welcoming would have definitely taught all this.

I mean, if you had said Massachusetts or something I would've been more obliged to believe.[/font][/QUOTE]Would you two kindly knock it off please? Honestly, this is just getting a bit absurd. You don't believe her Retri, we get it already.

The thing that annoys me the most about this, is you're making absoutely no allowances for religion or other factors that could have played into why her education, or anyone else from that time frame, was different from what you seem to think [I]all[/I] Americans got.

This was back during the huge push to end discrimination against Blacks within the Mormon Religion that Aaryanna_Mom is a member of. Everyone likes to paint all Southern states or even Religious ones as being indifferent against blacks when it's far from it.

My own father has told me of the same thing, how there was a push to work on educating kids and to get rid of the restriction that wouldn't let Blacks hold positions of authority within the Church. And yes there are a lot of Mormon's in Texas and yes this push came around the time when she was in High School and quite a few members felt that Church policy was wrong.

She won't say it but I will since she has told me about how her family was part of the group pushing for equality for Blacks in the church and in schools. My own parents were a part of it since they too felt it was unwarranted discrimination.

That discrimination finally ended in 1978 (yes I had to look that up, I knew it was in the 70's I just didn't remember the exact date). So seriously, stop looking at the world with narrow blinders and assuming the worst about everyone. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]The thing that annoys me the most about this, is you're making absoutely no allowances for religion or other factors that could have played into why her education, or anyone else from that time frame, was different from what you seem to think [I]all[/I] Americans got.

This was back during the huge push to end discrimination against Blacks within the Mormon Religion that Aaryanna_Mom is a member of. Everyone likes to paint all Southern states or even Religious ones as being indifferent against blacks when it's far from it.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]Ref: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement[/url]

The problem here is that this point has nothing to do with religion. Unless the religion taught about black history, I'm not really sure where it would factor into this equation. I mean, maybe this happened for her, but she said she learned about it in high school so I assume she meant non-religion education.

Interestingly enough, your mention of religion serves to underscore my original point - academic and historical discrimination is a systemic problem. Even a cursory reading of the aforementioned link will show you LDS was an extraordinarily racist group for years. And yes, like you mentioned, it only stopped in 1978. So why would I believe her for telling me she learned about African history in an extraordinarily racist state, under a discriminatory religion, in a time of division, schism, and turmoil? Forgive my impolite disbelief.

I'm not denying there were historical pushes for equality. Indeed, without these heroic movements the world would be a fundamentally different place. However these pushes, while great, have been insufficient. Academia is still a heavily eurocentric realm, African history is still overlooked as irrelevant or nonexistent, and kids never learn anything about Africa aside from "we took slaves from there." I think most of us witnessed this firsthand in elementary school, and hell, even in college.

To tie this all back (so I don't seem like an unrepentant troll), I feel Black History Month is a mechanism of empowerment for the black community. Because black history is so absent in the traditional classroom, I think it critically important we acknowledge it for at least a month. I think BHM is definitely weak and unimportant in it's current state. I think it only teaches MLK and Malcolm without examining history past these icons. I believe that if properly utilized, BHM could be a very powerful tool to counter academic eurocentrism. Therefore I support it's improvement and modification, not it's destruction. To entirely remove BHM would take away any semblance of academic equality of histories, and fail to provide a means of educating the population about black achievement.[/font]