Assisted Suicide

[Rachmaninoff]

I guess I?ll start something more serious in here. I was reading this article here:

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30346056/"][U]Suicide group's manual urges celebrations[/U][/URL]

And I couldn?t help but think why? Why would anyone think it was a bright idea to help people kill themselves? Now four members of this Final Exit Network have been arrested and according the the article: they face charges of assisted suicide, tampering with evidence and violating Georgia's anti-racketeering act.

I can?t help but see it as a type of murder for them to help people do this and then actually try to make it look like they died from natural causes. Anyway, apparently they only help people who are legitimately suffering, but I just see it as being open for so many horrific mistakes.

So what do all of you think of this? Is there any time that suicide is acceptable?

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][RIGHT][FONT="Times New Roman"]There's a difference between assisted suicide and signing a (DNR) Do Not Resuscitate.

It's hard to say if there's something even a little positive in helping people kill themselves when they're still healthy and not hooked up to machines that breathe and exchange fluids for them. Personally I think it's morally pathetic for these people who are too helpless to kill themselves and morally bankrupt for people who aid and abet the death of others.

Get a real job.[/FONT][/RIGHT][/COLOR]

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"]I'm in agreement with Raiha. o_O It's one thing if they have a terminal illness and don't want to be brought back, but the other is something those people shouldn't be doing. They already made the mistake of helping a woman who had mental issues and not a terminal illness, so clearly they don't know what they are doing.[/FONT]

[John]

What is it about suicide that you guys think is inherently immoral? What, exactly, do you see as morally corrupt about wanting to take yourself out of this world? And when one man sees another struggling with the means to kill himself and end his suffering, what is immoral about that first man feeling compassion for the second and wishing to help him carry out the decision he's made?

In other words, what's your moral basis--what do "right" and "wrong" mean to you when you say suicide is "wrong"? Now don't get me wrong, I think suicide is wrong, too. But I know why I think that--I'm a Christian, and I think a person's life isn't their own to make such a decision with. I believe no suffering a person can endure is able to outweigh God's love for that person. I don't blame somebody for trying to assist someone who wants to kill themself, but I think they're terribly mistaken.

So do you really have a reason for hating this group and calling them murderers, or are you conforming to the idea of alive = good, dead = bad because it's what feels comfortable?

[eleanor]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][RIGHT][FONT="Times New Roman"]Personally I think it's morally pathetic for these people who are too helpless to kill themselves and morally bankrupt for people who aid and abet the death of others.[/FONT][/RIGHT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] By "these people" do you mean the suicidal people or the group that is assisting the suicides? [/font]

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"][quote name='John]What is it about suicide that you guys think is inherently immoral? What, exactly, do you see as morally corrupt about wanting to take yourself out of this world? And when one man sees another struggling with the means to kill himself and end his suffering, what is immoral about that first man feeling compassion for the second and wishing to help him carry out the decision he's made?[/QUOTE]I should have been more clear. If assisted suicide is going to happen, it needs more care than just feeling sorry for someone. The only thing I would see as immoral is someone acting on those feelings when they are not in a position to understand if the person is really suffering, like the woman in the article who had a mental condition and just needed treatment. The group didn't seem to realize that. So it would be morally irresponsible to attempt to determine or make that decision when you have no real basis for it. At least that's what I think.[QUOTE=John]In other words, what's your moral basis--what do "right" and "wrong" mean to you when you say suicide is "wrong"? Now don't get me wrong, I think suicide is wrong, too. But I know why I think that--I'm a Christian, and I think a person's life isn't their own to make such a decision with. I believe no suffering a person can endure is able to outweigh God's love for that person. I don't blame somebody for trying to assist someone who wants to kill themself, but I think they're terribly mistaken.[/QUOTE]That's how I see it actually. I think they are mistaken and that is based on my religious upbringing that tells me taking a life, even your own is wrong.[QUOTE=John']So do you really have a reason for hating this group and calling them murderers, or are you conforming to the idea of alive = good, dead = bad because it's what feels comfortable?[/quote]Why would I hate them? I think they are wrong and unless the article is leaving details out, they are far from qualified to determine if someone really has a deliberating terminal illness. Feeling comfortable has nothing to do with it. Feeling bad that someone is in pain, is not a legitimate reason to help them kill themselves. I do not agree with assisted suicide, however if such a thing is going to happen, then it needs to be overseen by someone who is actually qualified. And by qualified I mean a doctor who can verify that they do indeed have some terrible illness, etc.

And to be clear, I have nothing against people who wish to kill themselves, if anything, they need our help and support.[/FONT]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Wow John. You need to stop hitting the Assumption button whenever you read something because you are taking things out of context in a manner I can only describe as pathetic.

You're just looking for an excuse to say negative things about a group of people who have religious views that determine that taking life for any reason is wrong. Sabrina never said she hated the group of people who went around gleefully aiding suicidal people. I did.

I say this because anyone who thinks it's their mission to be the great white hope for people with mental issues clearly has a undiagnosed God Complex.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Inuyasha Fandom]

The heavy burden that must weigh down on their concience must be almost unbearable, or the person assisting isn't worthy of being even human. However, If the person is legitimately suffering, up the ****ing pain meds.

Suicide is never right, but I can place no fault on those who are dying, and will die no matter what. I might very well do it myself to spare the ones I love from seeing me and causing them more pain.

[Allamorph]

[quote name='John']What is it about suicide that you guys think is inherently immoral?[/quote]
[FONT=Arial]It is the easy way out.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I can't imagine the hopelessness and despair that would drive a person to suicide. But I cannot excuse, I [I]cannot condone[/I] the cowardice that makes the final decision.

And it is cowardice. It is the single fastest way to make everything stop. Once you are dead you no longer have to worry about debts or pain or sorrow anything that exists in the physical world. You no longer have to struggle, you no longer have to fight. You are running away.

Thus to assist suicide is to approve cowardice. And this I also cannot excuse.[/FONT]

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Describing suicide as the ultimate form of cowardice is a massive over-simplification. I also think that it misunderstands the mindset of a genuinely suicidal person.

It is often tempting to look at suicide through the prism of logic, but I think we have to realize that being suicidal - to the point where one actually commits the act - is to be in a severe state of mental illness. A suicidal person does not apply the same rationale as the rest of us.

My own feeling is that many people use "suicide" to manipulate others. Quite often people who regularly talk about suicide - or use it as a form of emotional blackmail - are not actually suicidal as such. I think those examples tend to colour our perception of suicide.

I tend to feel that genuinely suicidal people need help rather than derision.

As for assisted suicide, my feelings are mixed. If I had a loved one who was terminally ill and suffering from untreatable pain, I can imagine seeing euthanasia as a way of relieving them. And in my own case, I am sure I would rather die with dignity than remain alive as a drooling vegetable.

Having said that, I think it is just too difficult to legalize euthanasia; that path is frought with too much peril.

Of course, I believe my body (and life) are my own domain and I would always object to the idea that someone else can determine my fate based on their personal beliefs. Still, as I said earlier, I think that moving down the legalized euthanasia path is just too difficult - I don't know how you could ever effectively regulate something like that. [/font]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]It is the easy way out.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I can't imagine the hopelessness and despair that would drive a person to suicide. But I cannot excuse, I [I]cannot condone[/I] the cowardice that makes the final decision.

And it is cowardice. It is the single fastest way to make everything stop. Once you are dead you no longer have to worry about debts or pain or sorrow anything that exists in the physical world. You no longer have to struggle, you no longer have to fight. You are running away.

Thus to assist suicide is to approve cowardice. And this I also cannot excuse.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] You're really going to apply a word like "cowardice" to a serious and complicated issue like suicide? I mean seriously, have you really been educated on suicide or mood disorders? And no, random news stories about Myspace suicides don't count. Anonymous internet posters that talk about cutting and suicide don't count.

You might want to call these people cowards, but in the end they're often victims of mental disorders that have failed to seek help from others. If you're willing to call some mentally disordered people cowardly, and lump all suicides into one category and assume they're all the same people with the same circumstances, it just shows that you don't know much about the matter.

I guess you could reply to this and say, "yeah I might sound like an *** but to kill yourself to end personal pain IS cowardly." Then my response is if your concern is so lacking that you're willing to call suicides cowardly, then I question why you're so against these people dying in the first place. [/font]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]Euthanasia has always been one of those concepts I've found hard to form a concrete opinion on because one can so readily see both pros and cons. Having lost several family members of cancer I can certainly understand a person's desire to keep their dignity intact in the face of such a horribly wasting and painful disease especially in regard to the final days/weeks. When there is no hope at all of recovery I would have no moral problems with a person being offered euthanasia.

Unfortunately for those who are not suffering from terminal illnesses or various mental illnesses that there is some hope of recovery from then it becomes a slippery slope indeed. Obviously if a person is suffering from a mental illness the logical response is that they should pursue treatment, but as James pointed out these people do not think in logical means and even if they can get treatment for their condition there is sadly no guarantee that it will be effective. I'm not saying these people should be given the offer of euthanasia but their situations are certainly not as clear-cut as some would like to portray.

In the end I have to agree with James, while there are times when I would whole-heartedly support a person's right to choose to end their own life, legalisation and judicial and medical oversight would probably prove too difficult to ever implement.

In regard to this group specifically I can't agree with their methodology, I don't know if there are some kind of legal issues involved that explain the attempt to make the deaths look natural but just the whole set-up doesn't seem right, I mean suffocation from helium with a plastic bag ? I'm afraid I can't see any approving such a method.[/SIZE]

[Sara]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]It is the easy way out.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I can't imagine the hopelessness and despair that would drive a person to suicide. But I cannot excuse, I [I]cannot condone[/I] the cowardice that makes the final decision.

And it is cowardice. It is the single fastest way to make everything stop. Once you are dead you no longer have to worry about debts or pain or sorrow anything that exists in the physical world. You no longer have to struggle, you no longer have to fight. You are running away.

Thus to assist suicide is to approve cowardice. And this I also cannot excuse.[/FONT][/QUOTE][size=1]You consider it [i]inherently immoral[/i] to take the easy way out? That's a pretty harsh statement, and one that doesn't stand up to situations other than this one. (Example: I use Blogger instead of coding my own website. I don't think there's a moral issue at stake there.)

As for the diagnosis of cowardice, I think your view of it is extreme. That's a fine mindset to have in, say, ancient Sparta. Or a military situation, where cowardly conduct by one person can directly endanger, kill, or prevent the duties of others.

But in the modern civilian world you "cannot condone" cowardice? That's very noble of you. But I gotta say, you have damn high standards.[/size]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='John]So do you really have a reason for hating this group and calling them murderers, or are you conforming to the idea of alive = good, dead = bad because it's what feels comfortable?[/QUOTE]Seeing something as murder, for similar reasons that Sabrina went into with her clarification, doesn't equal hate. Though I get the feeling you're referring more to Raiha's post than mine. Still, I just wanted to be clear on that. [QUOTE=Allamorph][FONT=Arial']Thus to assist suicide is to approve cowardice. And this I also cannot excuse.[/FONT][/quote]The problem with saying this, is it's leaving no room for considering genuine mental illnesses. I can't agree with such a broad statement since it's making the assumption that there is nothing else going on that could have contributed to the problem.

[Vicky]

[size=1]Not being religious I believe that life is yours to do what you want with and, therefore, the choice to take your own life is a sad choice but should be yours to make. Assisted suicide shouldn't be done by 'groups' in the article, but rather the by close friends or family. I don't think it's morally wrong to make a decision to end your own pain - it's [i]cruel[/i] to let someone continue in pain when they're going to [i]die[/i] soon anyway. How can you call that life?

Asking to die is probably the last thing that person can do with their dignity and taking it away from them is no one's business. It's a sad thing and must be horrible but I only agree with it in the case of someone terminally ill, perhaps not mentally.[/size]

[Allamorph]

Describing suicide as the ultimate form of cowardice is a massive over-simplification. I also think that it misunderstands the mindset of a genuinely suicidal person.

Right. And for that reason I said nothing about "ultimate forms" of anything. I will not call it more or less than any other act; it is cowardice, and there are no degreesâ??because to imply degrees is to begin to despise, and while I cannot excuse cowardice, I will not look down on it.

It is often tempting to look at suicide through the prism of logic, but I think we have to realize that being suicidal - to the point where one actually commits the act - is to be in a severe state of mental illness. A suicidal person does not apply the same rationale as the rest of us.

Again right. And I spoke with this knowledge present in mind. Heck, I'd be surprised if I applied the same rationale as the rest of you. The reasonings and cause/effects and decisions that lead to suicide are all individual, all specific to the person.

The only part I'm generalising is the attempt to escape.

My own feeling is that many people use "suicide" to manipulate others.

Yeah, and I tend to hold those as separate cases. A person who proclaims that they will kill themselves may very well be simply seeking attention, and in that case the motivations (and often the circumstances) are totally different.

On the other hand, suicide to me is a serious enough issue that I believe all cases should be treated as genuine issues regardless of whether the person is attempting to manipulate or not.

I tend to feel that genuinely suicidal people need help rather than derision.

If you feel I am looking down on the person, please do not misunderstand me, for I mean no such thing. I'm certain you are familiar with the expression "hate the sin, love the sinner". It is the act I find inexcusable, not the person. So long as the person lives I believe they can and should be helped (i.e., drawn back, not urged onward). Once the deed is done, the person is gone, so nothing is left but the act, and the surviving relatives who'll need comfort at that point.

You're really going to apply a word like "cowardice" to a serious and complicated issue like suicide?

You might want to call these people cowards, but in the end they're often victims of mental disorders that have failed to seek help from others.

I am. But we're defining the idea differently; I am not speaking of a person who is suicidal, but of suicide itself. The act, not the person.

I don't "want" to call those people cowards. I don't want to call anyone anything. (It's why I hate racists.) I can only return you to my initial statement: I cannot fathom the hopelessness and despair that would drive a person to suicide. I cannot. So I am left with only my own understanding.

Which is, and despite all my efforts will remain, limited. Edited February 7, 2015 by Allamorph

[John]

[B]Sabrina:[/B] Thanks for clearing that up. When you said you agreed with Raiha, I thought you were saying that you agreed with her hatred of that group (an opinion which she made very clear in her second post, in case there was any confusion). Also, the thing about the mentally ill woman was not only one incident, but the article gave us almost no info about it. At the very least, it isn't conclusive evidence of ineptness on the part of Final Exit.

[B]Raiha:[/B] Instead of exacerbating the situation, I think I'll give you a mulligan here: reread my post and try again, please.

[B]Allamorph:[/B] You are correct, sir--easy things are cowardly and wrong. This is why I sprint everywhere instead of driving and [I]only[/I] shoot from half-court when playing basketball. Doing things that actually solve my problems or make a situation easier show that I am weak, and it's wrong to be weak. (Seriously though, I think you may be oversimplifying when you call suicidal people "cowards". A bit of empathy goes a long way towards understanding a person. And why is it that you think cowardice is wrong? Do you also think being brave is inherently right? Aren't a lot of terrible people very brave?)
EDIT: Sorry, disregard all the things you've already addressed in your other post.

[B]Gavin:[/B] Assisted suicide is still illegal, so they have to make deaths look natural to avoid the government stopping them from doing something that they think is right. I don't think there's anything suspicious about that.

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"][quote name='John][B]Sabrina:[/B'] Thanks for clearing that up. When you said you agreed with Raiha, I thought you were saying that you agreed with her hatred of that group (an opinion which she made very clear in her second post, in case there was any confusion). Also, the thing about the mentally ill woman was not only one incident, but the article gave us almost no info about it. At the very least, it isn't conclusive evidence of ineptness on the part of Final Exit.[/quote]I meant the sentiment that it's not positive to help someone to kill themselves and that I see it as morally bankrupt on some level. I should have just been clear from the beginning. o_O Also, even though the article isn't clear enough, I still view assisted suicide as something that's illegal for a reason. These people know this and yet they're doing it anyway. [/FONT]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Allamorph']I will not call it more or less than any other act; it is cowardice, and there are no degrees?because to imply degrees is to begin to despise, and while I cannot excuse cowardice, I will not look down on it.[/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]But you already have - by calling it "cowardice" you are making a value judgment. If you were to not cast judgment, you would not call the act of suicide anything but "suicide."

[QUOTE]It is the [I]act[/I] I find inexcusable, not the person.[/QUOTE]
What obligation does the person have to remain alive? Why bother living? It's pointless after all. Hell, at least suicides go out on their own terms.

I think the fundamental disconnect here is that you ascribe value to life based on higher power. I, on the other hand, believe life is only what you make it. Life in and of itself holds no transcendent, metaphysical value. It is simply life.

I think John makes an excellent point with his [rhetorical] examples. Why not take the easy way out? Don't we do it all the time? And further, what's wrong with taking the easy way out?[/font]

[John]

[quote name='Sabrina'][FONT=Tahoma]I still view assisted suicide as something that's illegal for a reason. These people know this and yet they're doing it anyway. [/FONT][/quote]What's the reason it's illegal? Why does the government think it's wrong? I mean, I know why you do, and I know why I do, but do you think the government should be using the same religious basis?

Also, legality and morality aren't the same thing. Obeying the law doesn't necessarily make you a good person, and breaking it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. This group thinks this particular law is wrong, and they're putting their own freedom at risk by choosing to go against it. I don't think they're wrong about that part, at least.

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"][quote name='John]What's the reason it's illegal? Why does the government think it's wrong? I mean, I know why you do, and I know why I do, but do you think the government should be using the same religious basis?[/QUOTE]I honestly don't know what basis the government is using for it. I would imagine some of it comes down to whether or not the person really is suffering. Attempting to regulate something like that would be quite the headache I imagine. [QUOTE=John']Also, legality and morality aren't the same thing. Obeying the law doesn't necessarily make you a good person, and breaking it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. This group thinks this particular law is wrong, and they're putting their own freedom at risk by choosing to go against it. I don't think they're wrong about that part, at least.[/quote]I didn't say one way or the other in terms of legality or morality. Even if it were legal, I would still consider it immoral. But that is going back to my personal religious beliefs. Also, I have no issues with someone insisting that if they were to die, that they not be brought back. I don't see that as the same thing as actually doing something to make death come quicker. [/FONT]

[Allamorph]

Why bother living? It's pointless after all.

Why bother posting? Same logic. Edited February 7, 2015 by Allamorph

[James]

[quote]Right. And for that reason I said nothing about "ultimate forms" of anything. I will not call it more or less than any other act; it is cowardice, and there are no degrees?because to imply degrees is to begin to despise, and while I cannot excuse cowardice, I will not look down on it.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think Retri pretty much covered this point.

Regardless of any semantics/degrees involved, the bottom line is that you've made a value judgment about suicide - that it is cowardly.

And what I'm saying is that if you simply label all suicide as fundamentally cowardly, you are oversimplifying the problem.[/font]

[quote] The reasonings and cause/effects and decisions that lead to suicide are all individual, all specific to the person.

The only part I'm generalising is the attempt to escape.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Right, but you can't really have one without the other. I mean you can't on the one hand acknowledge that all circumstances are different and unique and then say that all suicide is cowardly.

I know where you're coming from, but I would even say that not all suicide is about "escape" as such. There's regularly a lot more to it than that.[/font]

[quote]On the other hand, suicide to me is a serious enough issue that I believe all cases should be treated as genuine issues regardless of whether the person is attempting to manipulate or not.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Good point.

I think that if someone is regularly threatening suicide to gain attention - or if they're even performing fake attempts - then clearly there is some sort of problem with that person. It may not be that they're suicidal, but it could be that they have some other type of social disorder.

So I agree - all cases must be taken seriously.[/font]

[quote]If you feel I am looking down on the person, please do not misunderstand me, for I mean no such thing. I'm certain you are familiar with the expression "hate the sin, love the sinner". It is the act I find inexcusable, not the person. So long as the person lives I believe they can and should be helped (i.e., drawn back, not urged onward). Once the deed is done, the person is gone, so nothing is left but the act, and the surviving relatives who'll need comfort at that point.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]You know, I've never been a fan of the term "hate the sin, love the sinner". It somehow feels like having a bet both ways. Anyway.

I do think you can probably dislike an act but like the person themselves (although there's no escaping the fact that it isn't a clear-cut division - disliking what someone does inherently colours our view of that person to some degree).

Nevertheless, this is why I say that suicide must be dealt with in the context of its real complexity. Families who lose loved ones unnecessarily suffer unimaginable ongoing pain - suicide obviously has far reaching consequences.[/font]

[quote]I am. But we're defining the idea differently; I am not speaking of a person who is suicidal, but of suicide itself. The act, not the person.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think the problem is that the language you are using doesn't express your idea.

An "act" - a verb - can't itself have an emotion. The person who commits the act must have the emotion. Therefore, equating suicide to cowardice automatically equates suicidal people with cowards.

I mentioned this earlier, but I think it's sort of the core point here. Anyway, even those people who have encountered suicide in their own lives often fail to understand it.

Luckily it seems that suicide is more understood now than it was years ago (like many forms of mental illness I suppose). So if more people are getting treatment, this is a good thing.[/font]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Why bother posting? Same logic.[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]You know what, you're absolutely right. Your brilliance is blinding, your logic impeccable. Don't bother actually replying, you've won me over with your unparalleled powers of persuasion.[/font]

[TwistedChick]

I can understand wanting pain to go away, whether it be physical or emotional, wanting it to be gone so badly that you'd rather feel [I]nothing[/I] than experience what you're going through.

Every waking moment is agony for some people. Several of my friends suffer from chronic pain, unimaginable suffering to all that don't experience it themselves. One in particular will go days on end where all he can do, noon to night, is grind his teeth against the excruciating agony radiating from his leg. He'll wake up with his hand bloody from where he bit into it during the night from the pain he was experiencing even while asleep.

But, as long as he can speak, he can be an encouragement to those around him, brightening their lives, and that alone is reason enough for him to still be alive in this world. I love John. He's a great guy, intelligent, strong, with a wonderful since of humor. He has a loving wife and many dear friends. If John killed himself because he "couldn't take it anymore," I don't know if I could forgive him. [I]We[/I] haven't given up on him yet. He shouldn't either.

Running away from life when so many people are rooting for you and are there to support you [I]is[/I] cowardly. You don't have the strength to fight through difficulty to save your own life? Fine, fight for the lives of those that love you. Fight for [I]their[/I] happiness.

Suicide, when carried out by someone that is fully aware of the consequences and the effect it has on others, is the ultimate act of selfishness. It's placing your own condition before the lives of everyone you know, trading the relief of your own personal suffering for the suffering that your loss will inflict upon all of those that know and love you. It's saying that you're too weak to keep trying for their sakes. True friends are there for the sake of one another, to see that the [I]other person[/I] is happy even if the one putting forth the effort isn't. If you have even one decent friend in this world, one person you'd rather see happy than sad, then fight to live.

It's pretty obvious I wouldn't support someone's decision to end his life, nor would I aid in any efforts to do so.