Assisted Suicide

[Nerdsy]

[color=deeppink]I believe it is absolutely wrong to take a life.

I also believe it is absolutely wrong to not intervene when someone is suffering to such a great extent.

I see this as a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If someone wishes to be euthanized and there is someone willing to do such a thing, I will not speak ill of either of them, even though I believe that the killing is wrong.

I could never do it myself.[/color]

[quote name='TwistedChick]Suicide, when carried out by someone that is fully aware of the consequences and the effect it has on others, is the ultimate act of selfishness. It's placing your own condition before the lives of everyone you know, trading the relief of your own personal suffering for the suffering that your loss will inflict upon all of those that know and love you. It's saying that you're too weak to keep trying for their sakes. True friends are there for the sake of one another, to see that the [I]other person[/I'] is happy even if the one putting forth the effort isn't. If you have even one decent friend in this world, one person you'd rather see happy than sad, then fight to live.[/quote]

[color=deeppink]I have a question: isn't this just a case of selfish desires versus selfish desires?

If everyone in this scenario is required to work exclusively for the other side's happiness, then if the "surviving friends" do not encourage this suicide, they are being selfish, right? It's trading the relief of the suffering they would experience at the loss of their friend for the suffering of their friend.

I don't think that the reasoning here really works; either the person comitting suicide is selfish for killing himself or herself, or the friends are selfish for not putting their friend before themselves. I think it's a little extreme to condemn either side in this scenario.

It is, again, damned if you do, damned if you don't.[/color]

[James]

[quote]You know what, you're absolutely right. Your brilliance is blinding, your logic impeccable. Don't bother actually replying, you've won me over with your unparalleled powers of persuasion.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]What do they say? Sarcasm is anger's ugly cousin? Or something like that. In any case, surely we can do better.[/font]

[quote]But, as long as he can speak, he can be an encouragement to those around him, brightening their lives, and that alone is reason enough for him to still be alive in this world. [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]In other words, John's only reason to remain alive at this stage is to keep those around him happy.

Believe me, I understand what it's like to be the family member of a person who is suffering so terribly. And no matter how much we hate their suffering, we just can't bear to let them go.

However, when do we ask the question "What are the patient's needs?"

I am absolutely certain that if a patient hangs in there, he or she is helping to serve the needs of his/her family. No question about that. But at what point do family and friends have to sit back and put the needs of the patient first? At what point does the patient's pain quality of life become more important than the selfishness of the family?

I am not suggesting that euthanasia is even an option here, because I think only the patient and family could even consider that sort of thing.

But in very broad terms, I sometimes think the best thing a family can do is put the patient's quality of life issues before their own desire to be "encouraged". If my comfort and encouragement depends on a suffering relative staying alive just for me... well, frankly, I'd suffer some guilt from that. I know everyone is different in this regard, but that's probably how I'd personally feel.

[b]Edit:[/b] Nerdsy expressed this far more clearly and succinctly than I did, haha. :catgirl:[/font]

[quote]Running away from life when so many people are rooting for you and are there to support you is cowardly. You don't have the strength to fight through difficulty to save your own life? Fine, fight for the lives of those that love you. Fight for their happiness.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]But in reality, do you really think it's just that simple?

As I said earlier, you can't always use rational arguments for people who are suicidal - people who have deep psychological problems, which require more than a slogan to fix. And which, in many cases, can not be fixed - only [i]managed[/i].

When we talk about cowardice, we often assume that every person has equal amounts of strength - [i]why don't you have the strength to fight?[/i] - but that isn't so. We are all different and we all view the world differently.

As cliche as it sounds, I think quite often we can't make these judgments about people without walking in their shoes or experiencing things that push us to (and beyond) our own limits. After all, how do you know where the limit is if you've never reached your own?[/font]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]
I am. But we're defining the idea differently; I am not speaking of a person who is suicidal, but of suicide itself. The act, not the person.

I don't "want" to call those people cowards. I don't want to call anyone anything. (It's why I hate racists.) I can only return you to my initial statement: I cannot fathom the hopelessness and despair that would drive a person to suicide. I cannot. So I am left with only my own understanding.

Which is, and despite all my efforts will remain, limited.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] The point is you can't impose logical reasoning onto a psychological action like suicide. Often there are deep mood disorders at the root of the problem; these feeling aren't logical or open to reasoning.

And as much I think about it I can't see how you separate act from person. Even if the kindest person you know did something really mean, they were being mean when they committed that act. If you call suicide cowardly, you are implying that the people who commit suicide, at that moment, are being cowards.

If you're going to impose logical deduction upon something only because you "cannot fathom" the emotional reasons that drive it, you're simply avoiding the issue. I find it very hard to believe that you don't have the sympathy to understand that when people commit suicide, a word like "cowardly" should not be applied. [/font]

[Mr. Maul]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]If only reality was objective.

Then words like "cowardice" and "bravery" would actually have relevance.







[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Rosencavalier]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']So what do all of you think of this?[/QUOTE]

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3286721.stm[/url]

[QUOTE]The 41-year-old computer technician is charged with murder, even though the victim allegedly volunteered for his fate by replying to an internet advert.[/QUOTE]

Not much at all. I do not know the persons in question, I only find myself dismayed that they believed this the only ultimatum.

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Is there any time that suicide is acceptable?[/QUOTE]

Euthanasia. Greek for 'a good death'. The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment.

[Korey]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Cannibalism to fulfill a person's personal wish to die is a far cry from taking someone off of life support or killing them via lethal injection when they have a terminal illness. You can't compare the two so easily because they share some sort of vague, far-fetched similarity.
[/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Rosencavalier][url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3286721.stm[/url]

Not much at all. I do not know the persons in question, I only find myself dismayed that they believed this the only ultimatum.[/QUOTE]You need to re-read the opening post since your answer is unrelated to the actual question I was asking. [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showpost.php?p=835997&postcount=1"][U]Post[/U][/URL] And since Korey already replied in regards to the case you linked to, which is seperate from the article I asked what people thought of, I'll leave it at that.

[Allamorph]

The point is you can't impose logical reasoning onto a psychological action like suicide. Often there are deep mood disorders at the root of the problem; these feeling aren't logical or open to reasoning.

Yes they are.

The difference is that they are not open to italics our end reasoning.

No matter who a person is or with what they are afflicted, be it circumstance or mental, every human makes decisions based on what makes sense to them at the time. Logic is always involved. It may be twisted, warped logic that a normal sane person would recognise immediately as wrong, but to the person who is making the decision the logic is clear as day.

I am imposing nothing on anyone. Rather, I am looking to understand italics their end reasoning without subjugating it to my own.

But I'm not trained in this sort of thing. I only know people by instinct. So I brought this up to someone whose field is psychology.

Taken from a conversation with Indi

Feelings are logical to a certain extent. There is a path to find. Saying they're not... is a cop out.

People want to sugar coat it, but bottom line is at that moment, they made that choice.

All you can do, then, is suspend your own sense of logic and reasoning until after you understand the other person's. It's like operating with Down's Syndrome; all the processes are still there and still capable, but things get mixed up on the way out. So here, it is the processor which is mixed up, and we must search for how the logical lines were fouled instead of blindly assuming that there are no lines at all.

 

If you call suicide cowardly, you are implying that the people who commit suicide, at that moment, are being cowards.

I imply nothing. I am directly stating it. But the concept as you are seeing it is correct.

What you are assuming is that I'm fine with that.
 

Regardless of any semantics/degrees involved, the bottom line is that you've made a value judgment about suicide - that it is cowardly.

And what I'm saying is that if you simply label all suicide as fundamentally cowardly, you are oversimplifying the problem.

I begin to feel that words like "oversimplify" and "problem" are being tossed around altogether too freely. With the former, how one can break an issue down past its base components is a concept I can't quite fathom. So instead of repeating that I am "oversimplifying", please tell me what that means.

In the latter, I confess that I have no idea what problem you mean. It's vague, and unless I understand your intent with that I risk going off in the complete wrong direction in attempting to answer it.

Also I did not say suicide is cowardly. It is Cowardice. There is a stark difference. (Although I suspect you may view that statement as "splitting hairs".)
 

Right, but you can't really have one without the other. I mean you can't on the one hand acknowledge that all circumstances are different and unique and then say that all suicide is cowardly.

Yes you can.

The circumstances make each case individual, meaning there can be no general solution as a whole but instead case-sensitive counseling. However, individual cases and circumstances do not automatically negate the same core motive.
 

I know where you're coming from, but I would even say that not all suicide is about "escape" as such. There's regularly a lot more to it than that.

That depends on the outside factors and how predominately they played on the person's mind, whether they catalysed the desire to escape or suspended otherwise rational thought through herd mentality. For the second one I'm reminded of the Heaven's Gate incident in California . . . led by a guy named Applewhite, I think? (I'm trying not to confuse it with the similar episode of CSI, is the problem. =P)

The only reason the deaths of the cult's followers are classified as suicides is because they did, in fact, take their own lives. After all, we're still in the process of recognising psychology as a legitimate murder weapon, and since Applewhite himself committed suicide the only purpose served by classifying the others' deaths as murder is for bookkeeping and (one would hope) easier peace for the families since no one living could be held accountable. Sticky situation. Although one wonders if the incident would have still occurred if the participants had not at some level still desired to escape this life and move on to . . . whatever they thought awaited them.

The former also involves psychology, and for that one I'm reminded of the girl who killed herself after online harassment. (I thought we had a thread on that, but if we did it's farther back than the eighth page or I never posted in it.) Unfortunately, while outside influence was a large factor there, the girl's desire to escape from her situation cannot be removed lest one completely misunderstand the seriousness of her situation.
 

I think that if someone is regularly threatening suicide to gain attention - or if they're even performing fake attempts - then clearly there is some sort of problem with that person. It may not be that they're suicidal, but it could be that they have some other type of social disorder.

Right.

Although I hesitate to use the term "disorder" because doing so risks reducing perception of them to a clinical perspective. You can't be detached about things like this. (Which is partly why I'm being so adamant about my point.)
 

You know, I've never been a fan of the term "hate the sin, love the sinner". It somehow feels like having a bet both ways. Anyway.

I do think you can probably dislike an act but like the person themselves (although there's no escaping the fact that it isn't a clear-cut division - disliking what someone does inherently colours our view of that person to some degree).

I would disagree. And I'd have to pull Vicky as the best example I can think of at the moment, for not only does she hold Christianity in a fair degree of contempt, but she is also lesbian, both of which fly directly in the face of my core values. And yet I count her as one of my most valued friends from hereâ??so much so that when she mentioned not long ago that she might drop off the face of the Boards I immediately set about convincing her to abandon the idea for, I admit, purely selfish reasons. I just didn't want her to leave.

There is no probably about it. I can't accept many of the life decisions she's made. But that doesn't mean I have to be thinking about them every time I talk to her or think of her.
 

Nevertheless, this is why I say that suicide must be dealt with in the context of its real complexity

.

Exactly. Here you and I agree completely. And I think that's where my initial statement has thrown you off, for even though the same core concept exists in all cases, each case must be dealt with on an individual level.

The only reason I make the unifying thought, then, is to better understand why suicide happens, why it requires intervention, and how to go about approaching each case.

And with that in mind, one of your last statements falls directly into place.
 

I think the problem is that the language you are using doesn't express your idea.

Not quite true. It expresses my thoughts exactly. and that preciseness is where the snags begin.

So far, I have caught all my repliers by my word choice. It was not my statement that caused the reaction; it was the word I used. 'Cowardice' is an ugly word. It makes people uncomfortable. And it should, because the qualities of character that it embodies are not desirable by any stretch of the imagination.

And therein lies the issue I have been driving at with this sequence of posts. I refuse to accept being comfortable with suicide. I refuse to accept that any of us have the right to sit around discussing suicide without fully comprehending its seriousness. I am met too often in my day to day life with people who are content to hold discourse on topics like these as if they were discussing Thomas Aquinas or Ludwig Wittgenstein. It is easy to say "suicide is terrible". You can forget you said it after twenty minutes.

John was the first to breach this mental barrier. He wanted to know what is so inherently wrong about suicide that we must work to prevent it whenever we can? I believe we can agree on the point that we must work to prevent suicide, but who in here truly understand why we believe so?

But often, as well, that kind of prodding yields no response. So I took it one step further.

And I got instant reactions.

And to be honest, those reactions came in exactly the manner I thought they would come. Because while we all want to agree that "suicide is bad", no oneâ??no oneâ??wants to risk appearing insensitive by stating an ugly truth. This mindset is so prevalent and so ingrained that even when one person is willing to take that step, they are instantly decried as judgmental and often close-minded.

In this case, the distinction most people will miss when presented with the word Cowardice is one of state of being. A Deserter is one who deserts. A Murderer is one who murders. But a Suicidal (and what a clever little label that is) is one who is likely to attempt suicide.

In other words, one who has not yet committed suicide.

I cannot be brave by simply considering a brave action. Neither can I be a coward by considering a cowardly action. In order to be one or the other, I have to actually take action. Since a person can no longer be suicidal after they are dead, only those suicidal people who have already attempted suicide and failed fall under my statement.

And then again, even though Cowardice does define part of one's character, that definition is not permanent. So saying someone is cowardly and saying someone was cowardly are again two different statements.

So while a lot of you will remain hung up on an ugly term and whether or not we have the right to "label", I instead desire to use such knowledge to help the people in question. I wish to focus on how to dissuade someone from becoming a coward because I do not want them remembered as one.

And that traces back to the initial post, and why I feel assisting suicide is worse than suicide itself.

Why would anyone in their right mind encourage another to be a coward? Such people are vile.



Addendum: Beware of confusing 'judgment' with 'bigotry'. A person who makes no judgments has no thoughts. Those who use such judgments to make themselves appear better or others worse are bigots, and only those.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Allamorph

[eleanor]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Yes they are.

The difference is that they are not open to [I]our[/I] reasoning.

No matter who a person is or with what they are afflicted, be it circumstance or mental, every human makes decisions based on what makes sense to them at the time. Logic is always involved. It may be twisted, warped logic that a normal sane person would recognise immediately as wrong, but to the person who is making the decision the logic is clear as day.

I am imposing nothing on anyone. Rather, I am looking to understand [I]their[/I] reasoning without subjugating it to my own.

But I'm not trained in this sort of thing. I only know people by instinct. So I brought this up to someone whose field [U]is[/U] psychology.
[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] Well, I don't know if I'm interpreting this wrong but you've almost proved my point. What I am trying to say is that we cannot impose our logic, as non-suicidal people, onto the emotions that arise from mental disorders. Of course, to a person afflicted with such a disorder their way of thinking is what they believe is logical (we can't even be sure of that, of course. Suicidal people do retain a want to live, but their decision to go through with it is often due to an inability to seek help). I'm not trying to say that logic has no place in a suicidal person's mind, but rather that to call the act of suicide cowardly from logical deduction is to impose logic when you can't.

By trying to understand suicidal peoples' logic, you ARE imposing your own logic upon them. By publicly admitting that you do this because you cannot understand or fathom their emotional processes, you are also admitting that you are, on some level, trying to understand their actions through logic. But in context with my previous paragraph, this does not line up perfectly.

What did the psychology-educated person say, btw? From what I've gotten from my abnormal psychology teacher, your argument is moot when it comes to helping suicidal people. While your argument may help you try and understand suicide, the important thing is that people are impressionable and it's generally not a good idea to link together the words "suicide" and "cowardice". In general it doesn't help how people look upon diseases such as depression and etc. [/font]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Also I did not say suicide is coward[U]ly[/U]. It is Cowar[U]dice[/U]. There is a stark difference. (Although I suspect you may view that statement as "splitting hairs".)[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] Could you expand on this? If an suicide is an act of cowardice, how is the person who has committed not cowardly in that moment of the act?[/font]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Not quite true. It expresses my thoughts exactly. and that preciseness is where the snags begin.

So far, I have caught all my repliers by my word choice. It was not my statement that caused the reaction; it was the word I used. 'Cowardice' is an ugly word. It makes people uncomfortable. And it should, because the qualities of character that it embodies are not desirable by any stretch of the imagination.

And therein lies the issue I have been driving at with this sequence of posts. I refuse to accept being comfortable with suicide. I refuse to accept that any of us have the right to sit around discussing suicide without fully comprehending its seriousness. I am met too often in my day to day life with people who are content to hold discourse on topics like these as if they were discussing Thomas Aquinas or Ludwig Wittgenstein. It is easy to say "suicide is terrible". You can forget you said it after twenty minutes.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] I don't think anyone here is comfortable with suicide, or trying to make you more comfortable with suicide. If anything my argument is that there are some mental/emotional processes that we cannot understand, and the best we can do is to offer sympathy rather than try to understand it through our own logic.

Cowardice is an ugly word, I agree, and so there should be some tact when you use it in writing. While I see that you are doing this to help you understand an action that you cannot emotionally sympathize with, there is a difference between what you believe and how you articulate it. [/font]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]So while a lot of you will remain hung up on an ugly term and whether or not we have the right to "label", I instead desire to use such knowledge to help the people in question. I wish to focus on how to dissuade someone from becoming a coward because I do not want them remembered as one.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] To be honest I followed you up till here. You want to help suicidal people by persuading them that suicide is an act of cowardice? I'm sorry, but there is no way I accept this. Trying to save an emotionally disturbed person, who probably has a mood disorder, by trying to tell them that logically suicide an act of cowardice sounds incredibly...not good. We are not professionals, none of us are truly fit to deal with suicidal people, I doubt any of us are actually experienced in the matter.

I respect you and your argument, but please don't ever try and deal with a suicidal person on your own. Enlist the help of a professional. As much sense as your own logic makes to you, there is a reason why psychiatrists and psychologists go to school and go through tests to see if they are fit to deal with these kind of people.


Also if any point this post reads stupidly or inanely, I won't be surprised because writing these posts is my break from writing annoying as hale English papers. -_- [/font]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]I guess at this point my question to all of you is, why are you so adamant against the word coward, cowardly, cowardice, etc? I'll tell you what I think of it, as someone who has been there, it[I] is[/I] a form of cowardice. You can be politically correct or attempt to be more understanding [SIZE="1"](or rather sound that way with softer words)[/SIZE] of what events lead to me attempting to kill myself, but the bottom line is, I did it out of fear and terror of facing the rest of my life. A life that at the time, was filled with more pain than I knew how to deal with.

I was terrified of continuing and I'm not ashamed to look back and see that cowardice for what it was. It didn't make me less of a person, and obviously I got help and moved past it. But I sure as hell am not going to sugar coat it and pretend otherwise. The only thing I lacked back then was the knowledge on how to see past that fear, and the help from others who, as gently as possible, helped me see that those fears weren't as terrible as I thought.

Anyway, as for assisted suicide, I'm of two minds about that. I don't want to see someone suffer, and yet like Nerdsy said, I don't know if I could actually help someone kill themselves to escape suffering. It really is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. I hope I never have to face it.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Allamorph']So far, I have caught all my repliers by my word choice. It was not my statement that caused the reaction; it was the word I used.[/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]The word you used was an integral part of your argument - suicide is bad because it is [i]cowardice[/i], and cowardice is bad. Yet you said you did not make a value judgment in calling the act cowardice... You cannot dislocate the word from the statement.

Further, you have yet to answer the questions at the core of this thread.
Is assisted suicide bad? (I would presume you'd say "yes")
Why is suicide bad? (It is cowardice, it is the easy way out)
Why is the easy way out a bad thing, and why is it cowardice? Don't we take the "easy way out" every day? If so, why should we isolate suicide as a "bad" instance of it?

What moral imperative do we have to live?


[QUOTe]I believe we can agree on the point that we [I]must[/I] work to prevent suicide, but who in here truly understand why we believe so?[/QUOTE]
That's the thing - assisted suicide, especially when the person is thinking rationally and lucidly, is fine with me. Euthanasia is fine with me. There's no binary of good/evil or right/wrong. There are shades, there are circumstantial judgments. At least to me...

[QUOTe]So while a lot of you will remain hung up on an ugly term and whether or not we have the right to "label", I instead desire to use such knowledge to help the people in question. I wish to focus on how to dissuade someone from becoming a coward because I do not want them remembered as one.[/QUOTE]
This assumes the potential suicide wants, or even needs, your help. Simply because you believe suicide to be morally reprehensible does not give you the onus of prevention.

PS: Sorry for being a snark last post... but honestly I wish you would've responded to my original questions/points.[/font]

[James]

[quote]I begin to feel that words like "oversimplify" and "problem" are being tossed around altogether too freely. With the former, how one can break an issue down past its base components is a concept I can't quite fathom. So instead of repeating that I am "oversimplifying", please tell me what that means.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I will try to clarify. Earlier on, you said this:[/font]

[quote name='Allamorph][i']As I've mentioned elsewhere, I can't imagine the hopelessness and despair that would drive a person to suicide. But I cannot excuse, I cannot condone the cowardice that makes the final decision.[/i][/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]You then said it was the easy way out.

My underlying point is that the application of these labels to suicide is an obvious oversimplification of the problem. In your estimation, suicide in general is representative of cowardice and/or the easy way out. This comment excludes all other possibilities by its very nature and it inherently makes a simplistic value judgment about a very complex problem.

Now, you also go on to say that each situation is different and you say you acknowledge the complexity of the problem. But then you say this:[/font]

[quote]The circumstances make each case individual, meaning there can be no general solution as a whole but instead case-sensitive counseling. However, individual cases and circumstances do not automatically negate the same core motive.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]And this is contradictory. It's like saying that each case of murder is individual with different circumstances, but that the motive is the same for all cases.

In other words, killing an intruder because they have a gun pointed at you (i.e. self-defense) is a different circumstance to killing a random child due to the thrill of it...yet the underlying motive is the same across the board? No.

If we take into account different circumstances and individual issues relating to suicide, we must also be open to the reality that the underlying motive for suicide is regularly different.

You've indicated this yourself by referring to cult suicides. If someone suicides because they believe - as a matter of faith - that this is something they should do for whatever reason (i.e. going to heaven, or because they have to leave the Earth or whatever), then clearly not all suicides involve cowardice as even a primary motivation.[/font]

[quote]Although I hesitate to use the term "disorder" because doing so risks reducing perception of them to a clinical perspective. You can't be detached about things like this. (Which is partly why I'm being so adamant about my point.)[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]On the contrary, I think that the concept of applying a single over-arching label to suicide demonstrates detachment from the issue.

As much as we want to sympathize with people, it's also important to identify what the causes of people's actions are. Obviously if someone is not actually suicidal (but perhaps if they have a different social disorder), they would need to be correctly diagnosed so that they could receive appropriate treatment.[/font]

[quote]There is no probably about it. I can't accept many of the life decisions she's made. But that doesn't mean I have to be thinking about them every time I talk to her or think of her.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Right, and that's fair enough. But we still do make a judgment about a person based on their actions, in one form or another.

So you may be Vicky's friend, but you may also think that some of her life choices are immoral. This, in turn, implies a value judgment about one's morality, however small that may be.

Nevertheless, my comments about "hate the sin, love the sinner" are really very general. It's a term that I've never liked, but is probably not really part of this thread.[/font]

[quote]And therein lies the issue I have been driving at with this sequence of posts. I refuse to accept being comfortable with suicide. I refuse to accept that any of us have the right to sit around discussing suicide without fully comprehending its seriousness. I am met too often in my day to day life with people who are content to hold discourse on topics like these as if they were discussing Thomas Aquinas or Ludwig Wittgenstein. It is easy to say "suicide is terrible". You can forget you said it after twenty minutes.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I'm not sure how many of us fall into this category, but I would suggest very few.[/font]

[quote]And to be honest, those reactions came in exactly the manner I thought they would come. Because while we all want to agree that "suicide is bad", no one—no one—wants to risk appearing insensitive by stating an ugly truth. This mindset is so prevalent and so ingrained that even when one person is willing to take that step, they are instantly decried as judgmental and often close-minded.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think you have misinterpreted our objection to your description of suicide as "cowardice". Refer to my earlier comments in this post on why we might disagree with that term.

But to add to that, I would just say, you assert that suicide being an act of cowardice is "an ugly truth". So equating suicide to cowardice is, for you, self-evident.

However, this is not some kind of objective truth that others simply fail to see. Rather, I think others are pointing out that there are many possible motivations for acts of suicide - and that by simply defining suicide as being cowardice, you may be limiting yourself to a single perceived truth without necessarily understanding the wide breadth of motivations and associated issues.[/font]

[quote]In this case, the distinction most people will miss when presented with the word Cowardice is one of state of being. A Deserter is one who deserts. A Murderer is one who murders. But a Suicidal (and what a clever little label that is) is one who is likely to attempt suicide.

In other words, one who has not yet committed suicide.

I cannot be brave by simply considering a brave action. Neither can I be a coward by considering a cowardly action. In order to be one or the other, I have to actually take action. Since a person can no longer be suicidal after they are dead, only those suicidal people who have already attempted suicide and failed fall under my statement.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]This goes without saying - I don't think anyone has misunderstood this. Obviously there's a difference (in specific definition) between a suicidal person and one who has already committed the act. If we did not understand that basic dichotomy, we would not be discussing multiple different related branches (i.e. euthanasia as opposed to different forms of suicide).[/font]

[quote]And then again, even though Cowardice does define part of one's character, that definition is not permanent. So saying someone is cowardly and saying someone was cowardly are again two different statements.

So while a lot of you will remain hung up on an ugly term and whether or not we have the right to "label", I instead desire to use such knowledge to help the people in question. I wish to focus on how to dissuade someone from becoming a coward because I do not want them remembered as one[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]The first comment... you can probably predict what I'm going to say: [i]semantics[/i]. Whether someone is/was/will be cowardly is largely irrelevant.

What matters - and what people are debating with you - is that you have defined the act of suicide as being an act of cowardice. This is the only point of real disagreement.

As for the second comment...well, that's a little slippery. :catgirl:

Instead of trying to take the high moral ground by saying that you won't get hung up on a word and will instead focus on how to help people (as if those who disagree with this are simply hung up on an ugly term), it might be better to try to understand what our objection is in the first place (and if that has not been clear so far, I hope it is now).

I would say that you are getting hung up on terminology, whereas others are pointing out the incorrect use of that terminology and how it simply applies a value judgment rather than an objective truth.[/font]

[quote]Why would anyone in their right mind encourage another to be a coward? Such people are vile.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]To answer this question (that is, if you're including euthanasia in your definition), I would just refer to what others have posted.

There are a myriad of circumstances where people want to relieve their loved ones of suffering - and in those cases I would say that compassion rather than cowardice is involved.

However, again, it depends whether you are incorporating euthanasia into your definition there. Of course euthanasia is still a form of suicide (whereby a person is responsible for their own death by their choice, with or without the help of others). Still, that's worth raising anyway.[/font]

[quote]Addendum: Beware of confusing 'judgment' with 'bigotry'. A person who makes no judgments has no thoughts. Those who use such judgments to make themselves appear better or others worse are bigots, and only those.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Nobody is making this confusion. [i]Of course[/i] we all make judgments about many things - we do not need to be told that, it should hopefully be obvious to all.

The point is not that you are making a judgment, but that you are making a [i]value judgment[/i] about an act and, by extension, the person who committed it. You are doing this without regard for their individual circumstances (i.e. by applying this one label to call cases no matter what). And that is really the crux of the argument.[/font]

[quote]I guess at this point my question to all of you is, why are you so adamant against the word coward, cowardly, cowardice, etc? I'll tell you what I think of it, as someone who has been there, it is a form of cowardice.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]My latest post deals with this further, but... I don't think any of this should be mistaken for an attempt to be politically correct.

The problem is that if you define all suicide as simply an act of cowardice and that you "want to stop people from becoming cowards", you are virtually making a laughing stock of the entire issue.

Preventing suicide should not be about stopping people from becoming cowards (a value judgment), but instead about [i]preventing death[/i] and [i]assisting people with the root causes of their suicidal feelings[/i].

Being able to appreciate the complexities of suicide and being able to treat the causes rather than worry about someone being known as a coward is a major area of difference among many of the views we've seen in this thread.[/font]

[quote]I was terrified of continuing and I'm not ashamed to look back and see that cowardice for what it was. It didn't make me less of a person, and obviously I got help and moved past it. But I sure as hell am not going to sugar coat it and pretend otherwise. The only thing I lacked back then was the knowledge on how to see past that fear, and the help from others who, as gently as possible, helped me see that those fears weren't as terrible as I thought.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Right - you lacked the tools to deal with your fear. In other words, your fear was not the beginning and end of suicidal thoughts - it was a symptom of other causes.

Also, fear played a role in your case, but what about someone who is so psychologically damaged that they believe their life is worthless? Or they might have the distorted belief that others would prefer it if they were dead?

It almost sounds childish, but for people with the relevant psychological problems... it is [i]real[/i]. To them it may not be an issue of fear or cowardice, but instead a purely functional decision borne of other emotions and for other reasons.

For others it may be that they have difficulty coping with various elements of their life (due often to a myriad of causes - one suicidal person might be depressed, where another might be skitzophrenic, etc...)

So the basic point (for me) is that the generalization that all acts of suicide are acts of cowardice and that all people who commit suicide are inherently cowards (whether at the time or at any stage) concerns me. It's a very limited definition and it doesn't imply any kind of understanding or grasp of the problem's complexity, at least on its own.

Some things that have been said to qualify that definition have helped, but I think the definition itself is far from some kind of objective truth.[/font]

[eleanor]

[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]I guess at this point my question to all of you is, why are you so adamant against the word coward, cowardly, cowardice, etc? I'll tell you what I think of it, as someone who has been there, it[I] is[/I] a form of cowardice. You can be politically correct or attempt to be more understanding [SIZE="1"](or rather sound that way with softer words)[/SIZE] of what events lead to me attempting to kill myself, but the bottom line is, I did it out of fear and terror of facing the rest of my life. A life that at the time, was filled with more pain than I knew how to deal with.
[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] Is it morally ethical to call a mentally disturbed person cowardly? Would you call a mentally retarded person "stupid"? [/font]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms] Is it morally ethical to call a mentally disturbed person cowardly? Would you call a mentally retarded person "stupid"? [/font][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]If they're mentally disturbed they belong in a mental hospital on the off chance that they have an actual legitimate medical issue that can be resolved with proper medical treatment. If it's a chemical imbalance, that can be fixed. If they're mentally retarded, they better possess enough of their own wits to know they want to die before some 'merciful angel' decides that mentally retarded people are better off killing themselves and unburdening society.

Otherwise you're taking advantage of someone's condition to fulfill your own desire to see people you deem as better off dead actually dead.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]If they're mentally disturbed they belong in a mental hospital on the off chance that they have an actual legitimate medical issue that can be resolved with proper medical treatment. If it's a chemical imbalance, that can be fixed. If they're mentally retarded, they better possess enough of their own wits to know they want to die before some 'merciful angel' decides that mentally retarded people are better off killing themselves and unburdening society.

Otherwise you're taking advantage of someone's condition to fulfill your own desire to see people you deem as better off dead actually dead.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] Interestingly, most depressed people commit suicide while recovering, not when they're at rock bottom.

But that's besides the point. My post was questioning if it's morally ethical to apply terms like "cowardice" to someone who has a mood disorder. Which I find similar to using "stupidity" to describe mentally disabled people.[/font]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][quote name='Lunox][font=trebuchet ms'] Is it morally ethical to call a mentally disturbed person cowardly? Would you call a mentally retarded person "stupid"? [/font][/quote]You're making the same assumption that Allamorph was talking about. It was those mental disorders, stress and so forth, that lead to making a choice that was cowardly because I became incapable of going further.

At that moment, that evening when I made the choice, I was a coward. I gave in to the pain and fear even though I fought it until that point. Again, there is no shame in reaching your breaking point. That is a part of being human isn't it? It does not offend me to acknowledge that I have been weak at times.

It's a fine distinction, one that a lot of you seem to fail to grasp, but living for years with mental duress of some kind isn't cowardly. It is only that moment when one gives up and takes their own life. It doesn't make them a bad person, it means they reached their breaking point.

When someone feels like there is no reason to continue, I wouldn't point blank say, you're just being a coward, I would try to help them get assistance like I did. But I still can see how giving up like that was me trying to take the easy way out. Climbing out of that mess wasn't easy at all, even with help.

However, attempting to compare mental retardation, which isn't reversible like many mental disorders are, doesn't even come close to the situation so asking that question is pointless. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[James]

[quote]It's a fine distinction, one that a lot of you seem to fail to grasp, but living for years with mental duress of some kind isn't cowardly. It is only that moment when one gives up and takes their own life. It doesn't make them a bad person, it means they reached their breaking point. [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think we grasp this, but we think cowardly is entirely the wrong word. If you look at the actual definition, this becomes clearer:[/font]

[quote=Definition of Cowardly]1. lacking courage; contemptibly timid.
2. characteristic of or befitting a coward; despicably mean, covert, or unprincipled: a cowardly attack on a weak, defenseless man. [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Now you may say that someone who commits suicide is lacking in courage, but even that I don't entirely agree with. Often I'd actually argue that the act of physically killing yourself is probably quite a resolute action that requires significant "courage" to follow through.

This is especially true given that killing one's self is contrary to inherent human instinct - you'd be surprised what people automatically/unconsciously do to save their own lives in a crisis situation, for example. To kill yourself you aren't simply committing an act based on an emotion - like cowardice - but rather you are able to overcome your inherent survival instinct. This denotes a deeper psychological issue rather than simple "cowardice".

When you look at the majority of the word's definition, though, I think it becomes clear why it isn't the right word in terms of how it's been used so far.

Allamorph's use of cowardly does not simply imply lack of courage. He talks about not "condoning" a cowardly act and people being remembered as "cowards".

This tone directly refers (intended or not) to cowardly as being contemptibly timid, weak, etc... in other words, there's no acknowledgement that truly suicidal people tend to actually have real clinical problems that must be dealt with.

Depression, for example, was often known as being "sad" or "upset" or "weak". In reality it is a very real physiological condition - it requires counselling and clinical treatment.

Given that many people who commit suicide do also suffer from depression, this kind of thinking is even more important.

Reducing a serious psychological state to "cowardice" or "being cowardly" singlehandedly dismisses these elements.[/font]

[Korey]

[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms] Interestingly, most depressed people commit suicide while recovering, not when they're at rock bottom. [/quote]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]I disagree with this. When someone hits rock bottom, it's the pinnacle of their depressed state. When they feel that there is nothing left for them and nothing can be done to assist in curing or treating their depression. I've known people that have killed themselves in both the recovery stage and when they hit rock bottom. So to say that even most people kill themselves in the recovery stage is a gross exaggeration.
[/FONT]
[quote]But that's besides the point. My post was questioning if it's morally ethical to apply terms like "cowardice" to someone who has a mood disorder. Which I find similar to using "stupidity" to describe mentally disabled people.[/font][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Mood disorders are capable of being treated, but if the person who has a mood disorder (and consequently is capable of rational thought) does not wish to be treated and opts to take the road of suicide, then yes I think it is a cowardly move. It's easy to kill yourself and not have to face the hardships and the truth, but the mentally strong and "brave" will endure it. Cowards will succumb to the pressure. Mood disorder or not.[/FONT]

[quote] Is it morally ethical to call a mentally disturbed person cowardly? Would you call a mentally retarded person "stupid"?[/quote]
[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]
Is it morally ethical to call someone who does something stupid "retarded?" No, but we do it anyways. My moral standards only go so far. A mentally disturbed person who avoids treatment and shuts down any sort of help, I would call them cowardly.

I think as far as mental retardation goes, it is a serious medical condition that is very real. But Forrest Gump summed it up nicely.

"Stupid is as stupid does."
[/FONT]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Korey'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"] Is it morally ethical to call someone who does something stupid "retarded?" No, but we do it anyways. My moral standards only go so far.
[/FONT][/QUOTE]


[color=deeppink]That is one of the most disheartening things I have ever read.[/color]

[Zen]

[quote name='Inuyasha Fandom']The heavy burden that must weigh down on their concience must be almost unbearable, or the person assisting isn't worthy of being even human. However, If the person is legitimately suffering, up the ****ing pain meds.

Suicide is never right, but I can place no fault on those who are dying, and will die no matter what. I might very well do it myself to spare the ones I love from seeing me and causing them more pain.[/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue][size=1]

I just can't agree with this statement. My grandmother died of lung cancer extremely slowly, and I watched the entire withering away process. And if I ever did contract that disease, I'll be damned if I put my family through the heartache and financial stress that such a condition involves. Not to say that I wanted my grandmother to prematurely terminate, because I loved her and I wanted to spend as much time with her as I could. Sure, I would've been heart-broken if she died either way, but I wouldn't have been angry or more depressed if she had saved herself the misery.

But at the same time, she went through so much physical pain, humiliating circumstances, and psychological anguish that I would never wish that upon any person. For a person to want to end their suffering sooner with dignity before they're left at a point where they need a person's help just to use the bathroom, that's not cowardly, that's just a choice. There isn't bravery or honor in dying slowly and painfully and humiliated, all at the extreme expense of your loved ones.

This is an issue ruled greatly by religious and moral opinions. My religion, while it values life greatly, doesn't really frown on suicide so much. Death is a tragedy for the living, of course. To those left behind, it hurts, but its also selfish to demand a person to live through misery and pain simply because "aw, you'll miss them". The situation does become complicated when a person has people financially dependant on them, but if your terminally ill or so mentally unstable that you can't function in normal society, I don't see that being an issue.

I always said that if I were to be stricken with an terminal illness, I would do something, I don't know what, to give myself a choice in my death rather than falling victim to the slow and inevitable future. I'd rather die in a way of my choosing. Not to say that I'm suicidal now, or that I don't value my life or the lives of others, but after a certain extent, the choice to die should be given to a person. Unless you can honestly call a person who is living in complete agony and misery a coward for wanting that to stop. In which case, I just could not respect that opinion. [/color][/size]

[Korey]

[quote name='Nerdsy'][color=deeppink]That is one of the most disheartening things I have ever read.[/color][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]
Especially when you take it out of context. I meant that statement in the context that I have no remorse for people who have the chance/opportunity to treat their mental disorders and they don't get the treatment they need due to their own volition.[/FONT]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Korey'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]
Especially when you take it out of context. I meant that statement in the context that I have no remorse for people who have the chance/opportunity to treat their mental disorders and they don't get the treatment they need due to their own volition.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Perhaps, then, you would care to explain what it has to do with all that.

As I see it, "it's immoral, but I do it anyway" has nothing to do with "I will not give sympathy to those who will not help them selves." There's no overlap there.[/color]

[chibi-master]

Though it makes me sad, I say that suicide is a person's own decision. But I do not approve of suicide groups such as this. And I do wonder about the term "assissted suicide"...

[Korey]

[Font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Alright.....

[quote= Korey]
Is it morally ethical to call someone who does something stupid "retarded?" No, but we do it anyways. [/quote]


[quote]My moral standards only go so far. A mentally disturbed person who avoids treatment and shuts down any sort of help, I would call them cowardly[/quote]

There. Maybe I should use the enter key more often when transitioning so I don't get taken out of context. Two separate thoughts. Wasn't trying to relate them.

I personally don't call people who do stupid things retarded. Idiotic, moronic, stupid, yes. But never retarded. People my age seem to like to use retarded as the adjective of choice when dealing with people that have done less than intelligent activities. But I would say it's just as wrong to call a person who does stupid things retarded, if not more so. But people do it anyways and it's not frowned upon nearly as much, at least I don't think so.[/font]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Korey'][Font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]There. Maybe I should use the enter key more often when transitioning so I don't get taken out of context. Two separate thoughts. Wasn't trying to relate them.[/font][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]This was not a case of you being taken out of context. Until your first response to me, I was not under the impression that they were the same thought; the only real confusion there was I thought "my moral standards only go so far" was part of the first thought. The line made no difference, as I would have been disheartened regardless.

The problem arose from your use of "we." I took that to mean that that you thought it was immoral to call stupid people "retarded," but you do it anyway so **** it. Since that is not the case, I don't have any criticisms.[/color]