Assisted Suicide

[Mr. Maul]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]There are two things to consider with this topic:

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][INDENT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray] 1. Suicide is painless[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[/INDENT][INDENT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray] 2. It brings on many changes[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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You can take or leave it if you please.








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[John]

Holy ****, this thread got real tl;dr real fast.

I think an important issue that hasn't been addressed (from what I've skimmed of these tangled mounds of text) is why do all of you think everyone should be alive for as long as they can maintain happiness? If someone wants to end their life, why do you say, "They have issues"? What is it about being alive that's better than being dead, and why should we feel the need to rescue someone from the "mistake" of not wanting to live anymore?

These questions are directed more towards those of you who don't cite religious reasons as your opposition to suicide than those of us who do, since I already know more or less what those answers would be.

[SunfallE]

[FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][QUOTE=James][font=franklin gothic medium]My latest post deals with this further, but... I don't think any of this should be mistaken for an attempt to be politically correct.

The problem is that if you define all suicide as simply an act of cowardice and that you "want to stop people from becoming cowards", you are virtually making a laughing stock of the entire issue.

Preventing suicide should not be about stopping people from becoming cowards (a value judgment), but instead about [i]preventing death[/i] and [i]assisting people with the root causes of their suicidal feelings[/i].

Being able to appreciate the complexities of suicide and being able to treat the causes rather than worry about someone being known as a coward is a major area of difference among many of the views we've seen in this thread.[/font][/QUOTE]Simply an act of cowardice? Not once did I say it was only that. Let me try to be clear on this. Suicide is highly complex and that is only one aspect of it. It's really hard to explain this to someone who hasn't been there. I am not saying it's ONLY about cowardice, I'm saying that is [I]part[/I] of it. It's fear, it's hopelessness, it's despair, its pain... it's a whole mess of conflicting emotions and a form of cowardice creeps in that helps push you over that final edge.

Preventing suicide is about helping people tackle ALL of it no matter how ugly it is. You're seeing this as a label when I'm talking about part of the feelings that were an important aspect of that moment. Preventing death as you put it, is being able to recognize what happened, every last bit of it. And that includes understanding why you want to end it.[QUOTE=James][font=franklin gothic medium]Right - you lacked the tools to deal with your fear. In other words, your fear was not the beginning and end of suicidal thoughts - it was a symptom of other causes.

Also, fear played a role in your case, but what about someone who is so psychologically damaged that they believe their life is worthless? Or they might have the distorted belief that others would prefer it if they were dead?

It almost sounds childish, but for people with the relevant psychological problems... it is [i]real[/i]. To them it may not be an issue of fear or cowardice, but instead a purely functional decision borne of other emotions and for other reasons.

For others it may be that they have difficulty coping with various elements of their life (due often to a myriad of causes - one suicidal person might be depressed, where another might be skitzophrenic, etc...)

So the basic point (for me) is that the generalization that all acts of suicide are acts of cowardice and that all people who commit suicide are inherently cowards (whether at the time or at any stage) concerns me. It's a very limited definition and it doesn't imply any kind of understanding or grasp of the problem's complexity, at least on its own.

Some things that have been said to qualify that definition have helped, but I think the definition itself is far from some kind of objective truth.[/font][/QUOTE]Again, this is about all of it. There is no generalization. It's me recognizing that I'm human and have my breaking point. I am not ruling out other causes, since they're part of what helps to drive one to do things they normally would not.

If anything I think it is cowardice that is often misunderstood. I've been there, I know what it is and it's terrifying. You're taking that single word as if it's the only thing I would say on the matter and it's not, it's only one part of it. I don't know how to be any more clear than that.

And since your other reply is essentially saying the same thing, I'm not going to answer it since that would be a bit redundant. o_O[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Mr. Maul'][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]There are two things to consider with this topic:

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][INDENT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray] 1. Suicide is painless[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[/INDENT][INDENT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray] 2. It brings on many changes[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[/INDENT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]
You can take or leave it if you please.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]


[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I'm not sure precisely where you decided that suicide is painless. Because unless these people committing suicide/assisted suicide have access to some groovy pain medications the average choke self to death with extension cord trick, drink self blind with sleeping pills trick, slice wrists trick, is not painless.

In fact it's nothing near painless. That's like saying dying is painless. Yes, sometimes it's painless. Most of the time it's really about as much fun as swallowing grenades. Try again next time.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Korey]

[quote name='Mr. Maul'][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]There are two things to consider with this topic:

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][INDENT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray] 1. Suicide is painless[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[/INDENT][INDENT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray] 2. It brings on many changes[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[/INDENT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]
You can take or leave it if you please.








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[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]I see what you did there, but I guess not everyone is familiar with that song, heh.[/FONT]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Korey'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]I disagree with this. When someone hits rock bottom, it's the pinnacle of their depressed state. When they feel that there is nothing left for them and nothing can be done to assist in curing or treating their depression. I've known people that have killed themselves in both the recovery stage and when they hit rock bottom. So to say that even most people kill themselves in the recovery stage is a gross exaggeration.
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[font=trebuchet ms] Um, it's not really a matter of disagreeing or agreeing. It's a statistical fact, according to my abnormal psychology professor, who I am more inclined to trust than anyone on OB. She works as a clinical psychologist so I'm assuming she knows what she's talking about. Also, theoretically, whenever someone is in their worst state of depression, they simply lack the energy and will to even bring themselves to commit suicide. [/font]

[quote name='John']Holy ****, this thread got real tl;dr real fast.
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[font=trebuchet ms] lol irl[/font]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][FONT="Arial"][quote name='John']Holy ****, this thread got real tl;dr real fast.[/quote]Agreed.[QUOTE=John]I think an important issue that hasn't been addressed (from what I've skimmed of these tangled mounds of text) is why do all of you think everyone should be alive for as long as they can maintain happiness? If someone wants to end their life, why do you say, "They have issues"? What is it about being alive that's better than being dead, and why should we feel the need to rescue someone from the "mistake" of not wanting to live anymore?

These questions are directed more towards those of you who don't cite religious reasons as your opposition to suicide than those of us who do, since I already know more or less what those answers would be.[/QUOTE]I have no religious beliefs to cite and I haven't posted in this thread as of yet, but I'll tackle that question just the same. When it comes to medical illness and suicide, people who desire death as a result of a serious or terminal illness, are usually suffering from depression, which is treatable. I would consider it negligent on my part to help them die instead of doing what I could to see that they get the necessary treatment.

I could not ethically consider euthanasia until after all methods and potential treatment was exhausted first. Then and only then would I give it careful consideration. And even then, I'm not sure if it's something I would be comfortable doing. Nor would I be comfortable with simply allowing someone to suffer. So I honestly don't know what I would do beyond insisting they pursue all medical avenues.

@ Korey: I'm going to back up what Lunox is saying about cases being more prevalent during recovery than when someone hits rock bottom as it were. The reason for this is that people who are suicidal, are often reluctant to even get help. So once initial contact is made, many will run away or avoid returning to complete the process.

Support at this phase is absoutely critical to ensure their success in combating the urge to die. There are many reasons for this. For example, if medication is given, it takes time for it to have an effect. Some anti depressants can take months before they have a tangible result. Sometimes they'll encounter unexpected side effects, making it necessary to switch to a new medicine, dragging the process out.

This paticular phrase of recovery is extremely vulnerable and unfortunately one of the highest points when someone does commit suicide. Like Lunox said, it's a statistical fact. You don't have to take my word or even hers for it. You can find most of this information here:

[URL="http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewPage&page_id=1"]American Foundation for Suicide Prevention[/URL]

Anyway, even with assisted suicide it's important to remember that ninety percent of the people who kill themselves, actually have a diagnosable and[I] treatable[/I] psychiatric illnesses; like depression, bipolar depression, etc. Plus depression has a high success rate for treatment. Between eighty to ninety percent respond well to treatment. And nearly all of them get some relief from their symptoms. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[James]

[quote]I think an important issue that hasn't been addressed (from what I've skimmed of these tangled mounds of text) is why do all of you think everyone should be alive for as long as they can maintain happiness? If someone wants to end their life, why do you say, "They have issues"? What is it about being alive that's better than being dead, and why should we feel the need to rescue someone from the "mistake" of not wanting to live anymore?[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think this actually has been addressed on some level by the "mangled mounds of text" (which don't appear so mangled if read).

The key argument has been that people who wish to end their life are "cowardly", as if that statement represents a summation of the entire issue. I have been pointing out that people end their lives for a multitude of reasons (not just suicide due to depression, but also euthanasia as a result of terminal illness, etc).

So in this way I agree that we can't cast off an entire group of people by implying simply that "they have issues" when there's obviously more to it than that.

In terms of your specific question about why is it better to be alive than to be dead...well, I almost think that is also a kind of simplistic question.

Apart from the fact that human beings have an inherent survival instinct (fight or flight being a classic example of that), it seems to me that generally people who make a choice to end their life do so mostly because they are motivated by some sort of negative - i.e. depression, abuse, terminal illness, etc...

I can't imagine someone who is having a completely "happy" or "comfortable" life simply saying "Oh I don't know what's so good about all this [i]living[/i], I might as well kill myself."

The only real exception I can think of might be that people may commit suicide for religious reasons. In other words, they may be living a happy/fulfilling life and they may not be depressed, but they may feel compelled to commit suicide for some reason based on faith.

There could easily be other examples, but I can't think of any. I'm sure they are probably out there though. :catgirl:[/font]

[quote]Simply an act of cowardice? Not once did I say it was only that.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Sorry Beth, I wasn't referring to your comments specifically. I was referring to Allamorph's comments (and some of the general sentiments that have flowed from those).[/font]

[quote]If anything I think it is cowardice that is often misunderstood. I've been there, I know what it is and it's terrifying. You're taking that single word as if it's the only thing I would say on the matter and it's not, it's only one part of it. I don't know how to be any more clear than that. [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Oh, no, I'm not implying that it's the only thing you'd say on the matter. I can see why you'd think that though, given what I'd quoted in the first instance.

I'm saying that "cowardice" is largely irrelevant to this entire issue, as least in the context it has been used so far. And primarily I think Allamorph has used the word incorrectly - it has amplified what I view as his oversimplification and misunderstanding of suicide as a topic.

I think what you yourself have expressed largely supports what I've been saying - that nobody can define all cases of suicide as simply "cowardice". Suicide is a complicated issue and making generalizations about it is inappropriate (again, I don't see you doing this, but I'm responding to that general point of view).[/font]

[quote]Anyway, even with assisted suicide it's important to remember that ninety percent of the people who kill themselves, actually have a diagnosable and treatable psychiatric illnesses; like depression, bipolar depression, etc. Plus depression has a high success rate for treatment. Between eighty to ninety percent respond well to treatment. And nearly all of them get some relief from their symptoms.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Bingo.

In the same way that you might not call a paranoid schizophrenic "mean", you would probably also not call a depressed person "cowardly". Far from being about political correctness, it's about simply using the incorrect word.[/font]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

I hope you'll all forgive me if I don't respond to all of the posts here. I'm only going to say that I can understand what Allamorph is talking about since, as someone who is religious, suicide is considered a grave sin. However, just because the act itself is considered a terrible and grave sin, it doesn't rule out how one approaches it.

This is how I see it: Was the person who took his life mentally ill? Was he or she so deeply depressed as to be unbalanced or otherwise emotionally disturbed? Was the suicide a tragic, pitiful call for help that went unheeded too long or progressed faster than the victim intended? Did he or she somehow not understand the seriousness of the act? Was he or she suffering from a chemical imbalance that led to despair and a loss of self-control?

So naturally once you have looked at these factors, you have to see what you can do to prevent it. I think it's the same for assisted suicide as well since like Indi pointed out, there is usually other things going on, like depression.