Obama urged to fight photo release.

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]Back at the end of April, the current administration agreed, at the American Civil Liberties Union, to release photographs of alleged abusive interrogations done in Iraq. ([URL="http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/23/Obama-to-release-interrogation-photos/UPI-94901240542264/"][COLOR="Blue"]Brief news article.)[/COLOR][/URL]

But apparently president Obama was somewhat against the decision, and now several senators are urging the president's administration to [URL="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/12/lawmakers-urge-obama-fight-releasing-photos-detainee-abuse/"][COLOR="Blue"]fight the release[/COLOR][/URL], saying doing so will hurt us both in the short and long run. The ACLU is not terribly happy with these people.

My only question in all of this: who in their right mind photographs an interrogation session? Unless you happen to get off on torture. And if that's the case, why were you allowed a camera while in the room in the first place?

Half of me wants to question the legitimacy of interrogation photos period since I would like to believe no one is stupid enough to have them and get them leaked. And then the other half is thinking "smooth move, ex-lax".[/FONT]

[Raiha]

[INDENT][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Personally Obama is in trouble either way, and I am now going to take a few brief moments to enjoy the Messiah in distress. 'Scuse me.

[i]....aaaaaaaahhhhh.....[/i]

Right, now that's over with. I personally feel that there is nothing to be gained if he releases or retains the photographs. I find it doubtful that they're going to be any sort of 'new' and 'inventive' form of torture. Likely it'll be what we've all seen before. Some 'poor' guy getting water poured up his nose. Personally I could care less if there was torture and the release of said photos would probably only result in me personally critiquing the torturer's form. The world of course will respond with INDIGNATION and other such moralizing tripe but that's only to detract from the simple fact that ALL COUNTRIES TORTURE.

Whether they're smart enough to keep such information under wraps or not, Russia, the UK, Middle Eastern countries, and Asia. China and Russia both gleefully torture their prisoners, and not with waterboarding which is what I personally call 'recreational activity'. England has a long and glorious tradition of fun and unique torture methods. Egypt, Saudia Arabia, all those countries happily whip out the pliers when a certain prisoner is not being forthcoming. I mean should we really care? I personally don't. I don't think it drags us down as a nation and our world image has yet to be improved by Obama, so a little more blackening will hardly kill us.[/FONT][/COLOR][/INDENT]

[Rachmaninoff]

My question is, would releasing the photos actually do any good. Though why anyone would even take them is beyond me. o_O But unless they're going to be pursuing charges against someone, or using it to help get rid of using interrogation methods that are pretty much torture, I just don't see the point in putting those pictures out there.

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]The logic is that if people actually see what's going on, there will be public outcry against the methods. This will probably be the case, as it was with Abu Ghraib. And of course, Obama will push to eliminate these methods.

Speaking of which - why do you question the legitimacy of the photos, Alla? It doesn't seem extraordinary after the disgusting and ridiculous photos from Abu Ghraib were released.[/font]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Raiha'][INDENT][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Personally Obama is in trouble either way, and I am now going to take a few brief moments to enjoy the Messiah in distress. 'Scuse me.

[i]....aaaaaaaahhhhh.....[/i]

Right, now that's over with. I personally feel that there is nothing to be gained if he releases or retains the photographs. I find it doubtful that they're going to be any sort of 'new' and 'inventive' form of torture. Likely it'll be what we've all seen before. Some 'poor' guy getting water poured up his nose. Personally I could care less if there was torture and the release of said photos would probably only result in me personally critiquing the torturer's form. The world of course will respond with INDIGNATION and other such moralizing tripe but that's only to detract from the simple fact that ALL COUNTRIES TORTURE.

Whether they're smart enough to keep such information under wraps or not, Russia, the UK, Middle Eastern countries, and Asia. China and Russia both gleefully torture their prisoners, and not with waterboarding which is what I personally call 'recreational activity'. England has a long and glorious tradition of fun and unique torture methods. Egypt, Saudia Arabia, all those countries happily whip out the pliers when a certain prisoner is not being forthcoming. I mean should we really care? I personally don't. I don't think it drags us down as a nation and our world image has yet to be improved by Obama, so a little more blackening will hardly kill us.[/FONT][/COLOR][/INDENT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] My emotions while reading this post:

:rolleyes:
:confused:
:(
:animesigh
:rolleyes:[/font]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]How about not relying on small circular collections of pixels like a thirteen year old and actually using your words to refute everything in my post you found inflammatory, incorrect, or depressing.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Korey]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]How about not relying on small circular collections of pixels like a thirteen year old and actually using your words to refute everything in my post you found inflammatory, incorrect, or depressing.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Easy there, sailor.

While it seems kind of weird to have photos of interrogations , stranger things have happened. Things that involve female soldiers with cigarettes in their mouths pointing to nude Iraqi prisoners. Unless the images are portraying something truly offensive or unlawful by Geneva code standards, then I see no need for the US to get their noses in it.

Unless it's Obama trying to spread a positive image for the country .

Bush=The Decider
Obama = The PR guy? [/FONT]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]How about not relying on small circular collections of pixels like a thirteen year old and actually using your words to refute everything in my post you found inflammatory, incorrect, or depressing.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms]I'm too worded out, I don't even want to think about creating logical arguments. I'm on vacation, girl.

But on the issue of the thread topic, I don't... see the big hoopla I guess. I agree with everything Retri said. Personally I don't feel the need to see these pictures, or don't see the need for it to be leaked onto the internet where it will for probably become a joke on 4chan. The only issues I would want to explore due to this situation would be like... the effects of war and power trips and the kind of people who join the army.[/font]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]So I've seen the photos. They were either released late last night or early this morning, because they're all over the place now. And the best I can manage is a heartfelt giggle.

Seriously.

As far as photographs go these are the tamest, lamest, most boring things ever. The best response most people have so far is: "Oh, so that's what waterboarding looks like." These pictures reveal nothing we didn't already know, in fact it just confirms that yes, at some point some guy with a beard was in fact wearing pink boxer shorts. OH GOD IT'S SO TORTUROUS![/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

Speaking of which - why do you question the legitimacy of the photos, Alla? It doesn't seem extraordinary after the disgusting and ridiculous photos from Abu Ghraib were released.

My only question in all of this: who in their right mind photographs an interrogation session?

Should have answered your question before it was asked. :p Abu Gharib or no, I find it very strange to actually photograph an torture session you are conducting, unless the point is to humiliate and mentally browbeat the subject. And even then, why not just use a camera with no film and not tell the subject? Pictures are tangible proof, and tangible proof of unethical and morally funky conduct wouldn't seem like a bright idea.

I'm not attempting to cast aspersions on the ACLU for trying to bring something like this to light, be sure. If they're right, then they're right, and some people been authorising some nasty things.

And like I said, it's only the one half of me wanting to question. The other half, like I said, was congratulating the photographer for proving he had the intellect of a two-year-old. (I'm sorry to keep repeating "like I said', but, you know, I did say it once already. :p)

My question is, would releasing the photos actually do any good.

Depends on your take on it. I think the ACLU could explain their reasoning better than I could. I think, though, you can either spin it as a measure to keep our troops and administration morally accountable (ironic, that); or, if you're cynical, to throw more crap at the Bush administration.

In other words, just standard politics.

Oi, that sounded a lot more bitter than I meant it to. I'm not a mindless Republican defender, I promise. (Almost typed "Reblublican" there. o_O) Edited February 7, 2015 by Allamorph

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"]My understanding was that those involved, had already been legally dealt with. I'm not completely sure since I haven't really followed this. But if that's true, there's no point in releasing the photographs. It's like dragging up old news that was already covered. Either way, I have no interest in seeing them.

Oh and I do, like Allamorph, wonder why anyone would be dumb enough to take pictures. That's just... really, really stupid. However, I'd argue that torture itself is pretty stupid to begin with. =_=[/FONT]

[James]

[quote]ALL COUNTRIES TORTURE.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]On what basis do you make that claim?

Thanks for single-handedly lumping all first world countries in with the likes of China and Saudi Arabia (two utterly backward nations with regard to human rights standards).[/font]

[quote]Speaking of which - why do you question the legitimacy of the photos, Alla? It doesn't seem extraordinary after the disgusting and ridiculous photos from Abu Ghraib were released.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]While I may not agree with waterboarding at all, I don't think you can necessarily link Abu Ghraib to Government policy. I can see a pretty wide gap between the two.

You may have recently read the CIA documents that were released relating to coercive interrogation techniques - things like waterboarding, prolonged standing and sleep deprivation were all mentioned. And when it comes to this sort of thing, I do personally think that the degree of severity is not irrelevant.

As far as the photos go, I really don't know what good it would do to release them. For one thing, they could compromise the identity of existing or former CIA agents, which is a big no-no.

I agree with Obama that the Administration probably doesn't want to see prosecutions of actual CIA interrogators, as this would create several major compromises.

However... if people really want to go after those who are responsible for this sort of action, they need to look at the people who were responsible for legislating/approving such procedures in the first place. And those people are many, inside and outside the former Administration - including both Democrats and Republicans alike.[/font]

[John]

Ultimately, our elected officials are supposed to do what we, the nation, wants them to do. That's kinda how this democracy thing works. So it flies in the face of everything this country is supposed to stand for to withhold torture photos on the grounds that the nation will balk at them and demand that those methods be barred from use.

[quote name='Lunox'][FONT=trebuchet ms] My emotions while reading this post:

:rolleyes:
:confused:
:(
:animesigh
:rolleyes:[/FONT][/quote] This is one of the better posts I've ever seen on OB, I think.

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"][quote name='John']Ultimately, our elected officials are supposed to do what we, the nation, wants them to do. That's kinda how this democracy thing works. So it flies in the face of everything this country is supposed to stand for to withhold torture photos on the grounds that the nation will balk at them and demand that those methods be barred from use.[/quote]Is it necessary to release the photos to the public in order to demand that such methods aren't used? I mean, clearly we know they are being used, so having additional photos proving it doesn't seem to change anything.

Anyway, I agree with James, if we really want those methods to be discarded, we need to go after the legislation that even allows it in the first place. ^^[/FONT]

[Jabberwocky]

[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]
Thanks for single-handedly lumping all first world countries in with the likes of China and Saudi Arabia (two utterly backward nations with regard to human rights standards).
[/font][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Palatino Linotype"]I have to agree about China. Any country that is willing to kill a baby because there's already one in the family is pathetic. I mean, sure, I don't like babies or children, but to kill any is both rediculous and cruel. At least bring them to another country, it's better than slaughtering innocent newborns!

Well, that depends on if China still does this, if not, then I'm sorry!

As for waterboarding, I can see why it's considered brutal. I mean, I'm afraid of water as is! But to have that happen to me is just too much. Well, on the bright side, it's better than having them bury me alive until I tell the truth.

Thank god I'm not a terrorist/traiter![/FONT]

[John]

[quote name='Sabrina'][FONT=Tahoma]Is it necessary to release the photos to the public in order to demand that such methods aren't used? I mean, clearly we know they are being used, so having additional photos proving it doesn't seem to change anything. [/FONT][/quote] Photos are a different means of communication that convey a different set of truths than words. These truths are no less significant than those of words. To say it another way, if the public currently has no problem with waterboarding but might change their minds if they actually saw photos of it taking place, then the bit of truth in those photos--the visceral, physical reality of waterboarding which can't be communicated as well linguistically--is important, and needs to be communicated to the public.

Of course, I can see the need for a large amount of secrecy and information withholding on the part of the government, and I support that, but that information is to be withheld on the basis of national security, [I]not[/I] because the public might demand change from the government if that information were exposed.

In any kind of democracy, it should all come down to the will of the people. Will many important matters and people be seriously compromised if a formerly unaccounted-for government is suddenly held to the standard it was sworn to in the first place? Yes, but government officials should've anticipated that when they first began to neglect the will of the people. Would the damage of exposing certain information, of finally setting certain deeply-wrong things right, really compromise the whole nation to the point of collapse? Possibly, in some cases. The only thing to do then is try to right the wrongs from the inside out, and just [I]don't let that **** go public[/I]. But I think most of our government's wrongs can afford to be exposed, and must be, in spite of the fallout.

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"][QUOTE=John]Photos are a different means of communication that convey a different set of truths than words. These truths are no less significant than those of words. To say it another way, if the public currently has no problem with waterboarding but might change their minds if they actually saw photos of it taking place, then the bit of truth in those photos--the visceral, physical reality of waterboarding which can't be communicated as well linguistically--is important, and needs to be communicated to the public.

Of course, I can see the need for a large amount of secrecy and information withholding on the part of the government, and I support that, but that information is to be withheld on the basis of national security, [I]not[/I] because the public might demand change from the government if that information were exposed.

In any kind of democracy, it should all come down to the will of the people. Will many important matters and people be seriously compromised if a formerly unaccounted-for government is suddenly held to the standard it was sworn to in the first place? Yes, but government officials should've anticipated that when they first began to neglect the will of the people. Would the damage of exposing certain information, of finally setting certain deeply-wrong things right, really compromise the whole nation to the point of collapse? Possibly, in some cases. The only thing to do then is try to right the wrongs from the inside out, and just [I]don't let that **** go public[/I]. But I think most of our government's wrongs can afford to be exposed, and must be, in spite of the fallout.[/QUOTE]I understand what you are getting at, but what I was trying to say was; does changing current policy, actually [I]require[/I] public release of the photos? My understanding is that prosecution of those involved does not.

I'm not saying they should never release them, I just wonder if it's truly necessary at this point. If keeping them under wraps is necessary for security, so long as those who should be prosecuted are, then I don't see a problem. If it's just to protect an image, that I don't agree with. [/FONT]

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]Perhaps a more vivid description of the aforementioned photos: [b][url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html][link][/url][/b]

Thoughts?[/font]

[Horendithas]

[FONT="Arial"][COLOR="Indigo"]I think they should stop hiding stuff like this. Yes I wonder what kind of idiot takes pictures like that in the first place, but more importantly, those kind of things shouldn't be happening in the first place. They need to stop shoving it under the carpet under the guise of protecting whoever. Sure it's going to create a negative fall out, but in the long run I think hiding from that causes even more problems. [/COLOR][/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

And now they're attempting to permanently block the release of the photographs...

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31276131/ns/us_news-security/"][U]Appeals court blocks release of detainee photos[/U][/URL]

All because it [I]might[/I] incite violence. I'm beginning to think they should just stuff them out there and get it over with, in addition to putting an end to that kind of thing period. But I doubt that will happen.