Kansas abortion doctor killed in church

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial][URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090531/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting"][COLOR="Blue"]Article[/COLOR][/URL]

Unoriginal thread title is easy. Also unoriginal.

[INDENT][I]There was no immediate word of the motive [of] Tiller's assailant. But the doctor's violent death was the latest in a string of shootings and bombings over two decades directed against abortion clinics, doctors and staff.[/I][/INDENT]

Guess what, guys? We've got ourselves some Pro-Life terrorists here in the States. Ain't that swell?

Makes me sick.[/FONT]

[pooperson]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]It's ironic to me that someone who supports life would kill.

How sad.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Kitty]

[size=1]What I find entirely unsurprising is that this happened in Kansas.

I'm still curious as to why pro-life, pro-war republicans who claim they are completely against terrorists have been using terrorism themselves for years and no one with a significant voice has called them on it.[/size]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I dunno Kitty, why do pro environment anti terrorism liberal groups use violence to advance their causes? Why do they threaten and assassinate bio medical doctors? Why do they blow up housing projects and hurt innocent people?

That argument is foolish and you assume that Republicans do not condemn the Christians who kill abortionists. Perhaps this is a result of you not reading much but all of the major figureheads like Dr. Dobson, the Minority leader of the House, and so on and so forth have said plenty about these kinds of people. Maybe it's because people who love to judge the crazy right wing radicals are incapable of reading anything produced by a Republican, or maybe it's because your idea of what the world is really like just can't be bothered with the truth.

Yes it's terrible that abortion clinics and doctors are being blown up, shot, etc. Yes it's terrible that these doctors are breaking their Hippocratic oath. Well here's a newsflash. The world is basically ****. What a surprise.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Kitty]

[size=1]And you assume I don't know the difference between a small group of sick people and the rest of the (usually) sane. I was not attacking nor did I claim that I was referring to [i]all[/i] republicans, and I know many people personally and of the majority who are both devout Christians and adamant right wingers who neither condone nor believe in using methods like that were used against Tiller. And I find it rude that you'd attack me on the assumption that I did.

I was simply stating that it is uncommon to see the word "terrorism" used in these cases by people the terrorists would be listening to.[/size]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][RIGHT][FONT="Times New Roman"]Maybe it's because your argument was so twisted and incomprehensible that it staggered the mind that you would be even a little surprised one would have difficulty understanding precisely which 'pro life' 'pro war' republicans you're talking about.

The man killed was a late term abortionist. In other words he practiced partial birth abortions, which involve the destruction of the infant's brain by crushing the skull and sucking out the brain matter with a vacuum while the infant's body still remains inside the mother so to keep the 'abortion' within legal definitions because once the head is removed the child's been 'born.'

Call me crazy, but I'm somehow summoning up difficulty feeling sorry for such a morally bankrupt individual. Not that I think killing him was the right idea, but testicle crushing might've been.[/FONT][/RIGHT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Kitty][size=1']I was simply stating that it is uncommon to see the word "terrorism" used in these cases by people the terrorists would be listening to.[/size][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Mmm. Your initial statement was very general, so it was also very open to interpretation, and thus misinterpretation.

And you're right, in that sense. Terrorism is a term rarely used by the people who employ it because they're able to somehow justify it in their minds.

[B]Edit:[/B]

[quote name='Raiha][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][RIGHT][FONT="Times New Roman"]Call me crazy, but I'm somehow summoning up difficulty feeling sorry for such a morally bankrupt individual. Not that I think killing him was the right idea, but testicle crushing might've been.[/FONT][/RIGHT'][/COLOR][/quote]
Great way to lead by example, milady. Also I'm not quite sure what that had to do with anything [COLOR="DarkRed"]Kitty[/COLOR] said at all.[/FONT]

[TalimSoul]

confused

[Jabberwocky]

[FONT="Palatino Linotype"]I think the irony of the situation is an eerie reminder of the lengths people will go to, for what they believe in.[/FONT]

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"]I find the entire affair sad. Also:[quote name='Raiha][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][RIGHT][FONT="Times New Roman"]Call me crazy, but I'm somehow summoning up difficulty feeling sorry for such a morally bankrupt individual. Not that I think killing him was the right idea, but testicle crushing might've been.[/FONT][/RIGHT'][/COLOR][/quote]Still using that sledgehammer when you debate with others I see. Can't say I agree since calling them morally bankrupt, takes the higher ground of assuming that your moral beliefs are superior. I don't buy it. =P[/FONT]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="times new roman"]My occupation doesn't involve the termination of viable fetuses already in the third trimester.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"][quote name='Raiha][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="times new roman"]My occupation doesn't involve the termination of viable fetuses already in the third trimester.[/FONT'][/COLOR][/quote]One's occupation doesn't determine their morals/beliefs. [/FONT]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]In other words the guy who was shot was a great family man who loved children and was an upright moral Christian who condemned murder but only in the advisory capacity.

And politician's beliefs have nothing to do with their job. Or priests.

That's not sad or creepy at all. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Nathan][FONT="Arial"']One's occupation doesn't determine their morals/beliefs. [/FONT][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]On the other hand, one's moral beliefs tend to guide their choice of profession. But you're right in that the correlation does not exist in the other direction.[/FONT]

[Horendithas]

[FONT="Arial"][COLOR="Indigo"][QUOTE=Raiha][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]In other words the guy who was shot was a great family man who loved children and was an upright moral Christian who condemned murder but only in the advisory capacity.

And politician's beliefs have nothing to do with their job. Or priests.

That's not sad or creepy at all. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]It's entirely possible. How people see and uphold their beliefs does vary from one religion to the next. And not everyone, regardless of when it happened, consider abortion murder, hence the bit on considering your moral's superior over another individuals. Because in order for them to be 'morally bankrupt' they have to be doing something that is considered morally wrong.

You're trying to imply, indirectly, that this person who died was a bad person when you don't know them well enough to say one way or the other. All on the apparent indirectly applied belief (not shared by everyone btw) that abortion, in the later trimester is wrong.

I may not agree with abortion, though I support a person's right to choose, but I would be more likely to point fingers at the idiot who murdered him than to belittle him based on what he chose to do with his life. [/COLOR][/FONT]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="times new roman"]I never said it was right to kill him. And I never said that the man who killed him was doing a good thing.

Yes, I object to his occupation and yes it was bad that he was shot instead of allowed to die of more natural causes like car crash, heart attack, chocolate, etc. It's bad that someone acted out of their own sense of morality and shot him. He'll in turn either be subjected to capital punishment or thrown in prison where he'll most likely suffer horribly in front of cable television and the internet.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[FONT="Arial"][COLOR="Indigo"][QUOTE=Raiha][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="times new roman"]I never said it was right to kill him. And I never said that the man who killed him was doing a good thing.

Yes, I object to his occupation and yes it was bad that he was shot instead of allowed to die of more natural causes like car crash, heart attack, chocolate, etc. It's bad that someone acted out of their own sense of morality and shot him. He'll in turn either be subjected to capital punishment or thrown in prison where he'll most likely suffer horribly in front of cable television and the internet.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]Well yeah, you might not agree with abortion, but you'd never say it was okay or that it was right or good. You just don't feel bad for him, and realistically, it is kind of hard to feel bad for someone you don't really know.

The whole thing just proves that there are morons on both sides of the picture. You can argue that aborting so late is moronic, I certainly think it is. And you can argue that the guy who shot him is a complete moron. The whole thing is just sad really. Killing him won't stop abortions, so it proved nothing.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"][quote name='Allamorph][FONT=Arial']On the other hand, one's moral beliefs tend to guide their choice of profession. But you're right in that the correlation does not exist in the other direction.[/FONT][/quote]That is what I was getting at.

We don't know why this man choose to perform abortions. But based on the article here: [quote][FONT="Arial"]Tiller had in the past endured threats and violence. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985.[/FONT][/quote]I think it takes a great deal of courage to continue to provide a service in spite of being terrorized by people who disagree. So though in general I'm not really for abortions, I think it's sad someone took their protest of it into the realm of terrorism.

@Raiha: I know you weren't saying it was okay. Since Crystia already covered that pretty well, I'm not going to repeat what she just said in her post. [/FONT]

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"][QUOTE=Allamorph][FONT=Arial]Guess what, guys? We've got ourselves some Pro-Life terrorists here in the States. Ain't that swell?

Makes me sick.[/FONT][/QUOTE]You're not the only one who finds it sickening. =_=

I do not agree with abortion, but at the same time, I cannot agree with committing murder to stop someone who is acting within the law. Actions like this don't help things at all, they just make the side that doesn't agree with abortion, look like fools.

I feel bad for the family. To lose a loved one over something like that is terrible.[/FONT]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]While I do sympathy with the family of the deceased, and would hope that Tiller's murderer is brought to justice as swiftly as possible, I admit that I am finding what this man did for a career to be nothing short of an abomination. I am anti-abortion in all by the most necessary cases and the idea of late-term abortions actually makes me physically ill. That said, to murder in the name of pro-life is about as hypocritical as one can get and this murderer deserves to the full weight of the law brought down on him.[/SIZE]

[Boo]

[size=1]It's just someone killing who they think is a mass murderer. It's not like a single one of you has never had the thought of doing the same. Except your idea of what murder is might be different. Heck, he could be seen as more like a lethal rogue comic book hero who has to work outside of the law because the law won't stop the killing, than anything else.

Don't be so freaking shocked about it. It's not right, but apart from the tragedy of a death, there's nothing extra freaky about this situation. Especially not since it's a [i]late term[/i] abortionist.

Apart from that: Tsk, tsk. Bad, bad assassin. In a [i]church![/i]

[quote name='Nathan'][FONT="Arial"] I think it takes a great deal of courage to continue to provide a service in spite of being terrorized by people who disagree. [/FONT][/QUOTE]Some people would just call that stupid and inconsiderate for the family you are sure to leave behind early. I'm pretty sure there's more plain old [b]pig-headedness[/b] to it than courage.[/size]

[Vicky]

[size=1]I'm against abortions but I certainly would never shoot a man who provides them, or even argue with him about it, or even treat him differently. He's providing [i]alternatives[/i] - no matter how sick everyone thinks they are - and he's doing a service. The people who want the abortions make the decision, not him, and I don't think it's his job to dictate right or wrong. If abortions must happen then they must happen professionally even though I strongly disagree.

It all boils down to a difference of opinion and it was completely unnecessary to kill a man for abortions. Perhaps the murderer thinks he was on a much higher moral ground, but he's not. He's just got a different opinion and he's probably not getting into heaven now, lol.[/size]

[Rachmaninoff]

I agree with Vicky. Whether I agree with abortions or not, it's no excuse to murder someone for it. If anyone is [I]pig headed[/I] in this situation, it's the fool who went to such extremes by shooting the guy, just to have things done the way they think they should be done.

It reminds me of an article I saw about the increase in threats against judges in our country. There's nothing pig headed about ignoring threats like that and doing one's job. It's a shame when others are so fanatical that they can't handle someone having a different opinion or doing their job.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']It reminds me of an article I saw about the increase in threats against judges in our country. There's nothing pig headed about ignoring threats like that and doing one's job. It's a shame when others are so fanatical that they can't handle someone having a different opinion or doing their job.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I think Rach saying that this is a result of someone who just couldn't "handle a difference of opinion or doing their job" regarding a doctor who performed late-term abortions might be a bit disingenuous. I doubt very many people would label the actions of a judge morally dubious, where as a doctor practising abortion is far more likely to draw such reactions. As Boo said, this could just be someone who decided he was going to take down a mass-murderer who the law would not only fail to prosecute but protected and enabled his work.

Again I'm not condoning or supporting the murder, I just think a lot of people are glossing what this man did as just some regular 9 to 5 job. [/SIZE]

[Rachmaninoff]

It's the principal Gavin and there's nothing [I]disingenuous[/I] about it. Vigilantist justice, [I]regardless of the reason[/I], is wrong. I think people are going, oh well, he was doing abortions so whoop de do da.

However, what's the point in having and upholding laws if someone blatantly disregards it to murder someone? All because they disagreed with that person's occupation? You can't just go, oh, well he considered the guy a murderer and shrug it off. No matter what his motive or reasoning, it was still cold blooded murder.

If anything you proved my point by saying people wouldn't label the actions of a judge morally dubious. Well what about those same judges who ruled in favor of abortions being legal? Still gonna say that?

People are letting their disgust for this man's chosen profession override their common sense. Where some of us are refusing to let it color our judgment in regards to a senseless crime.