Wacky Gods

[chibi-master]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff'][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I would have called that 'paying attention' instead of enlightenment, chibi-master. :p But hey, it did get you the extra credit and I bet your teacher's expression must have been amusing.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

It went from a sarcastic smile to an expression that was the embodiment of stupid realization. I gigglesnorted.

[TheShinje]

[quote name='Zen']
[SIZE=1]I really don't believe so to tell you the truth. It's a rather negative view to have of critics of Christianity to call them the "enemies of God". [/quote][/SIZE]

I was thinking more on Satan and the demonic here than someone like you who questions the Bible's logic. To this day there are many countires around the world where being a Christian is illegal. Bibles are burned and people are killed for standing up for their faith in Christ. I guess what I was trying to stress there is that the Bible continued to exist, even when there was such persectuion as the times of Caesar Nero.

[SIZE=1][quote][/SIZE]
[SIZE=1] Christianity places that answer in a book that is not only thousands of years old, but also one that has been altered countless times, and it seems like a very illogical thing to do.[/quote][/SIZE]

The Bible was compiled by the council of Nicea around 325AD, about the time Christianity became the state religion of Rome under Constantine. While it is thousands of years old, it's content wasn't altered, either at the council of anytime since. The recently discovered "Dead Sea scrolls" pieces of the Old Testament found after being buried for thousands of years, are the same passages we have in the Bible today, give or take a few differences in punctuation.


[quote]
[SIZE=1]From whence came sin? Man created sin? The Devil? But did not God create both? So man must redeem himself in the eyes of God for falling to the sins that God not only ordained as sins, but also, more or less created himself. That seems border on sadistic.[/quote][/SIZE]

That's a rather complex way of looking at sin. The way I look at it, sin is the act of disobeying God. You could technically say that man "created" sin, being the ones who disobeyed God, but I don't think you can say God created sin unless you tango with the idea that by allowing himself to be disobeyed, he created sin.

God does not endorse sin or ordain it, but in our free will we are allowed to stumble. The amazing thing is that, even though God is outside of time and kenw that we would fall short of his glory, he still decided to make us.

[quote]
[SIZE=1]But we are mortals, and God is the endless omnipresent. Everywhere, all the time, capable of anything. And the difference between God in this scenario, and America in the 9/11 one is that God created the things, and was fully aware of the things, that occured, or created the beings that caused the to occur, and again, was fully aware. America didn't breed, train, or oversee the path and lives of the terrorists who flew the planes into the twin towers. [/quote][/SIZE]

In this is your answer. God may be omnipresent but we are mortals. The historical accounts are in scripture for our benefit, we can learn from history and what has gone down, God doesn't need reminding, being outside of time you could say he is still there at the scene as I type this.


[quote]
[SIZE=1]What I meant was, why did God bother to create the world and universe to begin with? There was nothing but him, complete and perfect. He created that which would become imperfect, including Satan, the serpent, man, hell, and all other things that would come to signify "imperfection" and evil. Particularly if you are a determinist within Christianity, it becomes a weird dilemma, because that means that not only did God create the things (with all their weaknesses and imperfections), but also KNEW that they would go and do the things they did (and honestly, how can the "all knowing, all seeing" God not know it would happen?).[/SIZE]
[/quote]

I guess having nothing but empty space to keep you company can be pretty lonely, I would think that God wanted companionship. We don't have an account of the creation of angels and the heavens, but we do know that the highest of the choir of angels, Lucifer, rebelled from God, determined to overthrow him and become God himself.

Common thought on Eden and the fall of mankind is that Satan was envious of our relationship with God, and he desired to see us suffer a similar fate to his own. He tricked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit by calling God a liar. When both she and Adam ate the fruit, the quickly discovered who the liar was, when the fruit did exactly what God warned them it would do. God was acting in our best interests to warn us away from that tree, yet Adam and Eve trusted the serpent.

God persists with us, because in his knowledge of how things turn out he can see the fulfilment of redemption, he can see clearer than us just what it will be like when humanity comes back to him, full circle the way it was meant to be.

[quote]
[SIZE=1]But that doesn't answer where this evil came from. And why would God have a difficult time preventing evil? Working to abolish? He should be capable of aboloshing outright. He's God, he's very capable. So is he no longer omniscient? "Then why call him God?" [/quote][/SIZE]

[SIZE=1][SIZE=2]Yes, he could snap his fingers and wipe out evil in one swoop, but what would that teach humanity?[/SIZE] We would [/SIZE][SIZE=2]probably fall into the same traps time and again, leaving God to snap his fingers and wipe the slate clean every two seconds[/SIZE]

God was rejected by humanity in the fall and we are, as I understand things, being given time to run our own affairs. It's like God is giving us a chance to run the planet ourselves without him, if only to demonstrate to all of us just how much we need him to intervene and take the controls again. We have the promise that he will, and all this suffering will end once this age passes.

[SIZE=1][quote][/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Again, the problem with Free Will in Christianity is that, God knows everything. Correct? And if he knows everything, and the outcome of everything, and if he indeed does have a "plan" for everybody, then that must meen that he knows what everyone will do and has done, and there fore, what free will do we have? As well, there is a big difference between choosing something of your free will. If you were faced with "Bow to me and worship me, or be sent to burn in eternal hell fire", there isn't very much "free will" involved. Your only choices are "Do what I say, or suffer for the rest of infinity (which I may or may not send you to early if I so please". God could have easily created the world so that man was unable to stray from his path, but since God didn't, it means that he probably wanted someone to feed his ego with some way. Its like a Tyrant asking his servants "am I awesome", and killing them if they offend him in anyway.[/quote][/SIZE]

The problem with free will in your example there is it doesn't exist. If God put up the safety nets and ensured the only path we could take was him, there would be no alternative and he would have ended up with robots. God does have a plan for everyone, a plan for good, not for evil, but he doesn't want to force us into it. If, in our own free will we choose him, that's is far more rewarding than just forcing your creation to do your bidding! [SIZE=1][SIZE=2]We worship God because that is our innate purpose. In perfection we will be creations that give glory to God. Ever made something you were proud of? That will be us.[/SIZE] [/SIZE]

It isn't so much a case of "do as I say or burn" as it is a case of God's gudiing hand. He is assuring us that his plan is righteous and good, but taking any other paths will lead to destruction. Casting people into the fires of hell is the last thing God wants to do, and that is why we have the scriptures and a clear path out of the quagmire that we are in. Jesus came so that we might be free from the millstone of sin that is dragging us into the fire, in this regard it is not God demanding worship it is God who has taken the steps to save us. He is the firefighter with the trampoline standing outside the window which leads to safety, we just need to have enough faith to leap on to it. Worshipping Him comes naturally to a Christian thankful for Jesus' sacrifice, building that vital connection between God and us.

[quote]
[SIZE=1]I suppose the answer to that would be "everything and nothing". Buddhism is greatly about duality. I find all things in natural existance to be sacred, as I am part of that existance. But when everything is sacred, nothing is. Nothing is worth worship, but should be treated as sacred.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]My particular brand of Zen is called "Soto" sect, as introduced to me by author and Zen Master Brad Warner.[/SIZE][/quote]


That is interesting. As our scriptures declare "The heavens declare the glory of the Lord." I'm sure that reverence for creation is a good thing. I have come across teachings from Christians who declare that Buddhists worship the earth or something like that, so your statement that "nothing is worth worship" kind of contradicts their argument. Is it a difference between Zen Buddhism and Buddhism in general, or a misconception?

[quote name='Chibi-Master']No. No, it can't. If the children are born into a society and are taught nothing else, why should they be killed? And for a debatably existing being?! That's just ridiculous! Hiding behind 'God' in order to kill innocents is vile and dishonourable! Child salvation my foot! Shame on you![/quote]

I understand how you feel, I wasn't too clear on this. My position is that a loving God would require the children be taken, as opposed to left to die of starvation after a long struggle to cope with the loss of every grown-up in their society. The place would have become a basketcase with famine death and disease taking an immesurable toll on children not yet ready to run their own lives, let alone a whole civilisation. If a nation that has become corrupted must be taken out for the greater good and purposes of God (worth remembering that God judges fairly and even the adults of the fallen civilisation, having not known his way stand a good chance of knowing him in the next life) then it is only merciful that everyone goes and no-one is left behind to suffer.

Something to that degree. I must admit that even with this explanation I struggle with the idea, as I am sure most do when we are talking about spilling the blood of children.

What really clinches the deal regarding the God of the Bible for me is the accuracy of it's prophecy. It isn't vague, it is very specific in many cases. The prophecy concerning Tyre is a good example of this (Ezekiel 26:1 - 28:9.) The prophecy lists a series of events that would befall the city, and they happened. It was invaded by many armies, as prophecised, the city was thrown into the sea ans prophecised, when Alexander the Great build his causeway to reach the part of Tyre built on an island, and it became nothing more than a place for fishermen to spread their nets, once again as prophecised. More on the prophecy conerning Tyre can be found [URL="http://eternalministries.org/articles/ProphecyConcerningTyre.htm"]here[/URL].

[Pumpkin]

[font=arial narrow][size=2] Urrmmm actually there is such a thing as the [B]flying spaghetti monster[/B] right
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster]here[/url] said practiced by Pastafarianism religion. However its a MOCK religion and was used as a joke i guess for someone atheist lol.

And if you need to look for anything wierd even greek mythology is strange. I mean a guy swallowed his own children and people have given birth out of their head. Odd? I think so![/font][/size]

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]Generally I prefer to refrain from necromancy, but I just can't resist. 4give me, y'all.

[quote name='Sabre']The Bible was compiled by the council of Nicea around 325AD, about the time Christianity became the state religion of Rome under Constantine. While it is thousands of years old, it's content wasn't altered, either at the council of anytime since. The recently discovered "Dead Sea scrolls" pieces of the Old Testament found after being buried for thousands of years, are the same passages we have in the Bible today, give or take a few differences in punctuation.[/QUOTE]
The Bible was compiled arbitrarily at Nicaea -- there were a bunch of books they tossed out because they were believed to hold heretical or unflattering teachings/accounts of Christ's life. What criteria of judgment were employed, and who determined these criteria in the first place? Were these the judgments of man, or of God -- and if of God, how can you determine this?

Further, the synoptic gospels have parallel but [i]troublingly contradictory stories[/i] of Christ's life, persecution, and death. If these books are supposedly divinely inspired, how are there such glaring inconsistencies? Let's be honest, brother, the Bible is far from bulletproof.
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels"][B][link][/B][/URL]

[QUOTE]I guess having nothing but empty space to keep you company can be pretty lonely, I would think that God wanted companionship.[/QUOTE]
If we hold that God is fully perfect [insofar as he needs nothing else to complete himself, as he is complete -- an attribute of perfection], why would he need or even desire to create something outside of himself? Indeed, through the very act of creation, God necessitated the suffering of humanity whereas without this act, there would simply be perfection. Which universe would you prefer?

To be honest, I don't think we would get anywhere if I addressed other points made in your post. This is simply because we have such fundamentally different worldviews (and have a radically different set of axioms), it would be nigh impossible to even use the same vocabulary necessary for meaningful/intelligible dialogue. And questions of free will always get a bit sticky. :p[/font]

[aarenlainey]

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."