Racism.

[Claire]

One of my facebook friends just liked [url="http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-hate-people-who-are-not-black-but-try-to-be/79806363314"]this page.[/url] The title of it is "I hate people who aren't black but try to be" and it currently has 10,711 fans.

Am I the only person who finds this extremely racist?

Maybe it's a big joke that just went over my head. I honestly can't tell from the page info and wall posts. If it is a joke and other people don't get that, it's just perpetuating ignorance. If it is a joke, it just isn't funny.

Race is something that society constructed. It has nothing to do with a person's interests or personality. Race doesn't determine who you are. You don't have to have a certain color skin to act a certain way.

And if you change the page's title from "I hate people who are not white but try to be," you've time warped us back to 1964.

Anyway, what do you think? What other examples of racism do you see in real life today?

[James]

[font="Palatino Linotype"]I don't really know how to respond to the page you linked to, mostly because I think there is a whole lot of symbolism bound up with it that I don't completely understand. To put it another way, it's an American thing.

I can only say that, from where I'm sitting, the page seems to be talking about people who try to act like rappers or something - I don't even know what the right word is ("gangsta", maybe?). If that is the case, then it seems to me that the page's creators are complaining about white people trying to behave like a [i]black stereotype [/i]rather than "trying to be black" - I'm not even sure that the latter statement technically means anything at all. I'm not sure that their intention is explicitly racist; perhaps they're guilty of just being dumb teenagers who assume that everybody just knows what they mean, when maybe they don't.

Your comments about race are generally right, I think. But there's one qualifier I want to add. I think there are potentially a lot of people who over-simplify arguments by labeling them as racist. For example, I was having a discussion with somebody recently about the treatment of women in Islam and, although they did not have the gall to call me racist, they continually fell back to a default position that any serious criticism of Islamic society is inherently racist. This bothered me, because the issue clearly had nothing whatsoever to do with ethnicity, especially when you consider that Islam crosses many ethnic and national boundaries around the world. If anything, it was a question of gender and religious influence on culture. Unfortunately this is not the attitude that actually leads to any kind of real understanding or progress towards equality, because it shuts down debate - often at the expense of people who are being oppressed in very real ways. I would say it's almost a new form of racism, dressed in the guise of cultural relativity or multiculturalism. Take your pick on the appropriate word.

Anyway, in terms of the racism I see in real life...I have to admit that I don't see a great amount of it in my daily life. This is likely because attitudes towards race are quite different in Australia, as compared to America. That does not mean that racism doesn't exist here (because it surely does), but I think we have a very different outlook. It is really difficult to describe that; all I can really say is that our sense of humor is very irreverent. Rather than taking everything seriously and trying so hard not to offend anyone, it is almost that the opposite is true - everyone is a target for comedy (and that applies mostly to yourself!) There are, of course, limits to what is funny - but I think most people have a fairly intuitive understanding about that, especially if they are not genuinely racist).





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[Claire]

[quote name='James' date='26 June 2010 - 05:05 AM' timestamp='1277543114' post='696004']
[font="Palatino Linotype"]Your comments about race are generally right, I think. But there's one qualifier I want to add. I think there are potentially a lot of people who over-simplify arguments by labeling them as racist.[/font][/quote]
When I was first typing my reaction to the Facebook page, I did hesitate to use the word "racist." I just couldn't come up with anything better.

I used to think that "acting black" was a legitimate thing since a lot of the black people I saw at school got a lot from the stereotypes. Now I know those styles and attitudes are part of a subculture that anyone can take part in and it doesn't mean they are "acting black."

I totally forgot what else I was going to write here. Wtf. :|

[quote name='James' date='26 June 2010 - 05:05 AM' timestamp='1277543114' post='696004']
[font="Palatino Linotype"]Anyway, in terms of the racism I see in real life...I have to admit that I don't see a great amount of it in my daily life. This is likely because attitudes towards race are quite different in Australia, as compared to America.[/font][/quote]
I don't see a lot of racism every day either, but I don't get much further than my own little bubble most days. I have just one story that I think fits this topic pretty well, though.

One afternoon I was getting lunch at Evos (healthy fast-food place) and the girl in front of me in line asked the cashier if she could talk to the manager about her application. The cashier told her the manager wasn't there today, and probably something else that I don't remember. The girl then walked out of the restaurant, talking to herself very loudly about how stupid that was. I think she even called the cashier an ugly name.

Later, I recounted the story to one of my friends, and this the very first thing she asked me: "Was she black?"

It surprised me a little because my friend is a sociology major herself, but I said yes and told her that I didn't think it was relevant to the story.

She asked me if I thought a white person would ever do that.

...wow. Edited June 26, 2010 by Tonks

[James]

[quote name='Tonks' date='27 June 2010 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1277559150' post='696008']I used to think that "acting black" was a legitimate thing since a lot of the black people I saw at school got a lot from the stereotypes. Now I know those styles and attitudes are part of a subculture that anyone can take part in and it doesn't mean they are "acting black." [/quote]

[font="Palatino Linotype"]I suppose it could be said that if this subculture originated with black people rather than white people, then this is obviously the genesis of the term "acting black". Like all stereotypes, it finds its origin in something genuinely real, but eventually becomes a distorted generalization that can be used in a purely derogatory way.

There are many examples of this, too. I mean, you only have to look at my country - if I say "Australia", I bet you have already thought of one or two stereotypes. Some of these stereotypes are ridiculous over-statements of the truth in the positive, but they still have a kind of back-handedness about them. For instance, statements like "all Australians are good surfers" or "all black people are good at dancing" might both seem superficially positive, but they seem to carry some negative connotations about them.

I remember a really great interview between Germaine Greer and a ridiculous TV host here called Karl Stefanovic. The interview came about because Germaine Greer made some negative comments about Steve Irwin's TV show just after he died. Her argument had nothing to do with the man himself, but rather, the fact that he had become the dominant symbol of an entire country - and that it was embarrassing. Moreover, she complained that we frequently advertise ourselves as a place full of nasty, dangerous creatures; a place where no sane person would want to visit. In other words, we perpetuate negative stereotypes of ourselves, consciously or unconsciously.

So, I guess my point is both that most stereotypes do have their genesis in something real (whether we like it or not) and that sometimes we perpetuate our own negative stereotypes (whether consciously or not). I hope I'm making sense; it's 2:30 in the morning here, so please forgive me if I'm straying from the point too much.

[quote name='Tonks'][/font]I don't see a lot of racism every day either, but I don't get much further than my own little bubble most days. I have just one story that I think fits this topic pretty well, though.

One afternoon I was getting lunch at Evos (healthy fast-food place) and the girl in front of me in line asked the cashier if she could talk to the manager about her application. The cashier told her the manager wasn't there today, and probably something else that I don't remember. The girl then walked out of the restaurant, talking to herself very loudly about how stupid that was. I think she even called the cashier an ugly name.

Later, I recounted the story to one of my friends, and this the very first thing she asked me: "Was she black?"

It surprised me a little because my friend is a sociology major herself, but I said yes and told her that I didn't think it was relevant to the story.

She asked me if I thought a white person would ever do that.

...wow.[/quote]

[font="Palatino Linotype"]That's interesting and pretty revealing. It reminds me of the stereotype that all Asians are bad drivers. I'm sure you're familiar with that one.

Of course the truth is that they, like any other group of people, run the gamut between good and bad drivers. But I have often wondered where that stereotype comes from. I think a partial answer to that question was given to me by a close friend of mine who is Indonesian (well, she comes from Indonesia but has been a resident of Australia for about ten years now). When she tells me about Indonesia, she always mentions how the roads are so busy and nobody obeys the road rules. Two lanes become five, people swerve in and out of traffic - that type of thing. In other words, very different to Australian roads, which are comparitively orderly and tidy.

Do I think for a moment that this has anything to do with ethnicity, though? Of course not. Whatever else it is, it's definitely not about ethnicity. I'd say, as someone who has never studied sociology, that it's largely about cultural differences. I mean, one country has a population of 300 million and has had years of political instability and an enormous lack of education...while the other is virtually the opposite in every one of those fields.

If you have grown up in a situation like that and you have learned that driving on the roads means that you have to do whatever you can to simply survive it each day, then obviously you're going to carry those habits with you wherever you go - including to places where the experience is very different.

In other words, I think that stereotype - like most stereotypes - has some genesis in reality. The problem is that most people only consider it superficially as being about race (I think "ethnicity" is a better word than race), rather than realising that the genesis of the stereotype is a whole lot more complicated than that.

Sometimes, though, even asking serious questions about the origins of stereotypes - or trying to dissect them - can have you branded a racist. So it is possible to go to extremes in the other direction, too, as I said earlier.

...I really shouldn't type posts at this hour of the morning. Too long winded.
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[Cat]

Racism is a touche subject. Its is hard find the line on what can and isn't racist. As James has mention when you use stereotypes here is a base line of truth to them. People do bring this on themselves whether it be negative, positive, or a back-hand positive. I think it also can be said people can subconsciously be racist. Family and environment can also be a influence and creates a base for subconscious racism. These influences can be both positive or negative. It seems to be a type of defensive mechanism in my opinion. You stay were you are conformable.

This Standford article can explain better then what I can about unconscious racial stereotypes [url="http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/news/research/hr_racialstereotypes.shtml"]Racial Stereotypes Can Be Unconscious but Reversible[/url]

[Mr. Maul]

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[img]http://www.yasharbooks.com/offensive2.gif[/img]

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[pooperson]

[url="http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/"]So is this racist then?[/url]

[Gavin]

[quote name='DisrespectWomenEarnALiving' date='27 June 2010 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1277668810' post='696049']
[url="http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/"]So is this racist then?[/url]
[/quote]

[quote]White people like the World Cup because it allows them to pretend they are European for a few weeks[/quote]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]*Raises eyebrow*

I'm reminded of a Richard Pryor quote from See No Evil, Hear No Evil.[/size][/font]

[Claire]

[quote name='DisrespectWomenEarnALiving' date='27 June 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1277668810' post='696049']
[url="http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/"]So is this racist then?[/url]
[/quote]

It's true that it's sort of a...double standard, for lack of a better term (I'm having a bit of trouble wording things correctly, it seems), that jokes about any group except white people are often seen as offensive or politically incorrect. I haven't researched racial issues or anything like it any more than going over it in my sociology class, but I've always felt that making white people the butt of a joke is not seen as racist just because of the group's collective history - fair-skinned people haven't exactly suffered due to prejudice against their skin color.

Once in my class, the subject of racially exclusive things came up. As far as I know, there aren't any "white only" scholarships or schools. Yet as a white girl, I don't find that strange or unfair at all. Just the opposite; I think it would be very weird if there were something like that, like a White Pride group. Perhaps it's just something instilled in me after learning about slavery and the Civil Rights movements, and maybe this wording will come across in a way I don't really intend it to, but I don't feel like being white is anything to be proud of, just because of what I said before about the lack of major anti-white sentiments in the past.

Things usually don't offend me very much. At least "politically incorrect" things very rarely get any sort of reaction from me. What I got out of the facebook page is the idea that black skin creates one persona and white skin creates another, and that's just how it is, and mixing and matching is wrong. That's something that bothers me a lot.

This took so much longer to type than I expected. My thoughts are all scattered and not conducive to a decently eloquent post.

[Botar]

[color="#008000"]This whole thread offends me.

Can't we all just get along?
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[Boo]

[youtube]zc5ztwJvfUA[/youtube] Edited June 29, 2010 by Lady Shy

[Gavin]

[quote name='Lady Shy' date='30 June 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1277852853' post='696161']
[youtube]zc5ztwJvfUA[/youtube]
[/quote]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]This offends me...

...The Internet Is For Porn is a much better song from that musical.[/size][/font]

[Boo]

[quote name='Gavin' date='30 June 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1277893664' post='696202'][font="Tahoma"][size="2"]...The Internet Is For Porn is a much better song from that musical.[/size][/font]
[/quote]You're such a white boy masochist otaku Star Wars nerd.

Obviously the whole musical is grand deluxe. Edited June 30, 2010 by Lady Shy

[eleanor]

The biggest form of racism I've experienced, other than the general social lameness of being a racial minority anywhere, is the inadvertent prejudice from my friends. I'm Asian but I'm what people call a "twinkie" aka all my friends are white etc. IDK why it turned out that way, probably just because I went to predominately white schools and I only went to Korean-community things for church.

Anyways, I love my friends but sometimes I desperately wished I had Asian friends, too. It's just the small thing that add up over a long period of time. General ignorance of Asian cultures, saying "ew" or "WEIRD" to things I eat/do every day, etc. etc. Nothing is on purpose, of course, but it adds up.

Also, I got really angry at my best friend once because she was bemoaning that fact that she was white and told me "it's just cooler to be a minority, especially Indians and Asians, you have it BETTER." LOLWTF. Anyone who thinks this, or the same about ANY racial minority in the U.S., has some serious ignorance going on.

She went on to say being white sucked and she wanted to have a "cool culture" to celebrate. I was seriously about to punch her in the face. Edited June 30, 2010 by eleanor

[Botar]

Reverse discrimination offends me more than actual racism. And before any one jumps on me about it, I've already burned enough bridges saying this. So please don't kill me.

The thought that everyone gets "equal" rights, and there is affirmative action floating around. (until not to long ago) And if you have a little Indian in you, you get a better chance of getting in to a college. It just pisses me off that other races get more benefits than white people, I thought this was an equal nation, but it will never be until we all move on and forget what was done in the past. Edited June 30, 2010 by Botar

[eleanor]

[quote name='Lady Shy' date='30 June 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1277912566' post='696216']
What did you do instead?
[/quote]

I told how much she was offending me and she was like WHY LOL IDGI so I just stopped. smh

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Lady Shy' date='30 June 2010 - 06:21 AM' timestamp='1277904080' post='696209']
You're such a white boy masochist otaku Star Wars nerd.

[b]Obviously the whole musical is grand deluxe.[/b]
[/quote]
[font="Comic Sans MS"]I bolded the important part because of how true it is. Though it's got one line that's either slightly less funny or slightly more funny now that Gary Coleman is dead.[/font]

[quote name='eleanor' date='30 June 2010 - 06:58 AM' timestamp='1277906337' post='696210']
She went on to say being white sucked and she wanted to have a "cool culture" to celebrate. I was seriously about to punch her in the face.
[/quote]
[font="Comic Sans MS"]That's such a load of bunk. White people have Teddy Roosevelt. That's all the "cool culture" I'll ever need.[/font]