Anime Fansubs: Good or Bad?

[The Tentacle]

Okay, this is likely a volatile topic so before I even begin this discussion I'll ask that everyone keep things civil and respect one another's opinions.  Debate is to be expected but no flamewars please.

Now then, onto the subject of fansubbing.  This has always been an issue with certain people but a recent argument between the denizens of [b]2ch[/b] and [b]Sankaku Complex[/b] has stirred my interest in the debate.  What do the rest of you think about it and where do you stand?

Rather than link to either site (due to offensive content) I'll sum up the argument.  2ch claims that foreign (mostly American) piracy is harming the industry by stealing profits from the various anime studios, thus making it more difficult for legitimate consumers of their products to acquire them.  Sankaku counters by stating that they are supporting the industry by creating interest and demand in anime series that have yet to be released overseas.

~

As for me I have to side with 2ch.  I've never supported fansubbers, preferring to buy officially licensed DVDs.  Firstly there's a quality issue.  Subtitles translated into English are usually rewritten to make them more entertaining whereas a lot of fansubs are direct translations that lack the punch of dialogue that's been written by a professional.  Plus I prefer the English dubbed audio track that you can only get from an anime studio.  That option, along with all the extras you get with a DVD are well worth the cost of actually paying for my anime.  It's also worth the wait.  I don't mind holding out until a series I'm interested in is released.  I'll admit I'm tempted to check out a fansub "to tide me over" sometimes but unless the industry completely collapses I'll stick to my guns.

Secondly there's the principle of the thing.  I don't believe that fansubbing is supporting the industry at all.  If someone were subbing and distributing trailers for a show that'd be one thing.  That would stir up interest in the series, thus creating a demand for it.  But translating an entire series and then making it available for free viewing does nothing but harm the industry.  An overwhelming number of people would rather watch a cheap fansub at no cost than buy the DVDs from a legitimate seller.  And that's what's harming the industry.  If an anime studio is losing business because nobody is buying their products what incentive do they have to continue distributing anime?  In the end it's people like me who buy their products who are suffering.

~

Well, that's my two cents worth on the subject.  I'll apologize in advance if what I've said steps on anyones' toes but this is a pretty big issue in the anime/manga world and one I feel is worth discussing.  I'd like to know where the rest of you stand on it. Edited January 4, 2011 by The Tentacle

[Sangome]

[color="#9932CC"][font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]*sighs and pushes up her nonexistent glasses*

While I agree wholeheartedly that fansubs are a factor that's hurting the industry [I don't feel it's the sole reason, though. A big reason? Heck yes. The WHOLE reason? No.], I see it as a necessary evil, even though calling it "evil" is a bit of a stretch. English distributors will look at what the popular series are before licensing them. And how do they do that? They look at what the most popular fansubbed series out there are. Most fansubbers worth their dignity will also have a "please delete this torrent when the series is licensed" somewhere on the sub as well. Obviously, they can't go to every computer that's torrented whatever series and delete them, but it's there.

I could go on if I could get my thoughts together to form a more coherent argument [this is probably because I don't watch much anime anymore as it is], but that's the gist of my stance. While I understand and agree with 2ch's argument to an extent, I have to side with Sankaku's argument. I don't like fansubs, and the people too cheap to go out and buy/rent DVDs are another matter, but it's pretty much a given that the companies just don't know what to license unless they know what's popular in the fansub circuit.[/font][/color] Edited January 4, 2011 by Sangome

[The Tentacle]

Yeah, there's truth to that too.  I admit that there are some responsible fansub sites out there who take down their stuff when the series gets licensed.  But still, there are way too many people who view the fansubs that don't share their attitude.  A lot of people are content with having seen a series once and won't bother to buy the licensed product or they download them into their personal files for future viewing.  In that case it's the viewers, not the fansubbers, who are abusing the system.  Hence the damage is still being done.   Edited January 4, 2011 by The Tentacle

[Shinmaru]

If I remember correctly from one of ANN's podcasts on anime economics (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong!), fansubbing abroad does negligible harm at best to Japanese anime studios. Your dollar does not support Sunrise or Madhouse or BONES or whatever; it supports the American companies (Funi, Nozomi, etc.) that license the series. Japanese studios get their money from Japanese DVD sales and merchandising. Not that this sweeps away the anti-fansub argument, or anything, but it's a common misconception.

Now, I'm definitely sympathetic to American companies. I actually have a job now, so my consumption of DVDs has gone up quite a bit -- I've bought more boxsets in the past few months than I did in the five years prior to that. If I watch a fansub for a series and [i]really[/i] like it, then I make sure to buy the actual series if it's licensed and I want to watch it again. That's only fair, I think.

A grayer area is series that aren't licensed. There's just no reasonable, viable way to acquire many of those shows (particularly older series like [b]Rose of Versailles[/b] that will be licensed during an especially cold day in Hell) unless you're willing to pay out the wazoo for Japanese DVDs/BDs and a player that can play them. There are numerous great series that just are not available in America and elsewhere, and stand very little chance of being licensed due to how risky they would be to sell. ([b]Kaiba[/b], [b]Kaiji[/b], [b]Hataraki Man[/b], etc.) Downloading them illegally obvious isn't a totally perfect course of action, but there is literally no other alternative to view many of those shows here.

Well, that's not totally true now, with the advent of streaming. It's not a perfect system (companies have yet to figure out how to make it truly profitable, and the video quality is often much lower than your standard 720p fansub), but it's definitely a step in the right direction. I've caught a few series on Crunchyroll and Funi's sites, along with the YouTube accounts some companies keep up. (For instance, I recently watched all of [b]Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt[/b] on Crunchyroll, and when I watched [b]Slayers[/b] with Desbreko, I used Funi's YouTube account.) ANN is of course getting into the game, too, even though they've had a couple of bumps in the road. Streaming is a great thing, I think. And it's a much more viable way for American companies to get better, riskier anime to consumers -- [b]The Tatami Galaxy[/b] would probably sell like crap if it were licensed, but streaming is a solid alternative.

[PWNED]

I kinda side with Sankaku Complex in that fansubs actually and see the whole thing as a necessary evil. The best effect by them is that they allow a look at some anime that hasn't been released yet and it builds up demand. I know that I'm not innocent of watching some fansubs as I checked out the Deltora Quest anime a little while after it was released in Japan. Of course, this led me to checking out the official product when it received its Australian release.

So long as the downloaders support the official product and check out the translated release than I have no problems. Of course, that's asking a lot of some people out there on the internet.

[Desbreko]

[quote name='The Tentacle' timestamp='1294184208' post='703637']Yeah, there's truth to that too. I admit that there are some responsible fansub sites out there who take down their stuff when the series gets licensed. But still, there are way too many people who view the fansubs that don't share their attitude. A lot of people are content with having seen a series once and won't bother to buy the licensed product or they download them into their personal files for future viewing. In that case it's the viewers, not the fansubbers, who are abusing the system. Hence the damage is still being done. [/quote]
[color=#4B0082]I think it's rather absurd to expect people to buy every series they view fansubbed. For a lot of anime, there's no other way to view a series before buying it. (Props to R1 companies making more shows available for free streaming, or at least making a few episodes available as a preview, though.) I sure as heck am not going to blindly buy DVDs without knowing if I'll like the show, and I'm also not going to buy DVDs for a show I [i]know[/i] I don't like that much just because I've watched it fansubbed. It doesn't work that way with TV or streaming viewers, and fansub viewers are no different.

That said, I do like to buy the official releases of my favorite anime, or at least what I can afford of them, despite tending to have watched them multiple times through fansubs and/or DVD rips. For example, I have three copies of Lucky Star: A fansubbed version, rips of the R1 DVDs, and the official R1 DVDs themselves.

By the way, where do these 2ch people think fansubbers get most of their raws? They should go look at how much anime is on Japanese p2p networks before they whine about American piracy. This sounds like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.[/color]

[The Tentacle]

The fine folk at Sankaku have already brought up the issue of Japanese piracy being the source of a lot of the fansubbers stuff.  I don't think the matter is going to be settled anytime soon, if ever.  

I do admit that there are some positive aspects to fansubbing.  As Shin pointed out it's often the only medium through which non-Japanese fans can view a series (usually an OVA set) that's never licensed outside of Japan.  I myself had to torrent the [b]Kino No Tabi movies[/b] and OVA, so I approve of this aspect of fansubbing at least.

And I also agree that viewing a series beforehand is the best way to encourage someone to purchase a series.  A lot of my older disks such as [b]Tenchi Muyo[/b], [b]Mobile Suit Gundam: Wing[/b] and [b]Martian Successor Nadesico[/b] were only acquired after I'd seen those series on Cartoon Network.  So even though I don't view anything on legitimate streaming sites like Funimation or Crunchyroll (due to hardware limitations mostly) I have nothing negative to say about them.

The problem I have is with the "watch anything you want, anytime you want and never pay for it" mentality that a lot of Internet users have.  I hate to keep beating a dead horse but that's where the problem lies.  Pretty much everyone who's posted in this thread have stated they buy officially licensed products even if they've watched the fansubs and that's a big part of the solution.  But a large number of the people who watch fansubs choose to be a part of the problem rather than the solution.  Edited January 5, 2011 by The Tentacle

[Shinmaru]

[quote name='The Tentacle' timestamp='1294250638' post='703653']The problem I have is with the "watch anything you want, anytime you want and never pay for it" mentality that a lot of Internet users have.  I hate to keep beating a dead horse but that's where the problem lies.  Pretty much everyone who's posted in this thread have stated they buy officially licensed products even if they've watched the fansubs and that's a big part of the solution.  But a large number of the people who watch fansubs choose to be a part of the problem rather than the solution. 
[/quote]

Yeah, I don't really like this either. Every licensed series on my computer gets deleted after watching; if I'm not going to rewatch, then there's no reason to have it around, and if I want to rewatch it, then it's better to buy it. Unfortunately, there will always be people who always download and never pay for anything, no matter what sort of legal action is taken. They exist in every hobby that has easy digital access. The music industry came down hardcore on downloaders, and it hasn't really stopped them at all. Really, for a niche industry like anime, it's imperative to develop better business models that make enough people want to buy rather than download. Streaming is a good step.

I'm not a businessman, though, so I can't really propose anything better. :p

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]There's always going to be piracy, like Shin said. Even if everyone up and stopped fansubbing tomorrow, there'd still be piracy of official streaming video, DVDs, BDs, whatever's out there that's not free. That's why I don't think fansubbing in particular hurts the industry nearly as much as people screaming about fansubbing killing the industry would like us to believe.

On the subject of Japanese piracy, I'd think that would actually hurt the industry a lot more than American piracy. Japanese piracy directly cuts into the animation studios' sales in their primary market, whereas American piracy mainly hurts American companies and makes them less likely to license as many shows. That still hurts the studios due to lost revenue from licensing, of course, but I doubt they rely on that nearly as much as BD/DVD sales in Japan.[/color]

[The Tentacle]

And I totally understand that piracy will continue to exist so long as humanity itself does.  Believe me, I know.  I've been a part of the anime culture for over 20 years now.  I fondly recall having to scrounge around the "wild feeds" with my family's 30 foot fiberglass satellite dish just to catch the rare episode of Dragonball Z or Sailor Moon.  I remember having to beg my mom to drive me an hour and a half to the nearest mall that sold anime VHS tapes.  Yeah, we were all like seething crackheads back in the day and I probably would have been all over just about anything that offered me free and easily obtained anime, regardless of the situation.

But that was then and this is now.  Anime has made its way into popular culture and it's more readily accessible to anyone interested in it.  In that regard fansubs trump distributors in that they offer their wares at no cost and deliver them quite literally right to your doorstep.  I can understand the appeal of this but I still choose not to partake of it.  I'd rather watch a quality product from the comfort of my couch than sit in front of this computer, spazzing out about a slow download and waiting feverishly for it to finish so I can watch a single, poor quality video of a badly translated episode.  No sir, my days of being a seething anime addict are over.

Anyway, Pleiades linked me to [url="http://www.theotaku.com/worlds/fheadarticles/view/39281/"]this article[/url] which I'd like to respond to.

To my mind it's a long-winded and verbose way of saying "I'm going to watch what I want, when I want and never pay for it."  The writer is stating that we, as fans, are the heart and soul of the anime culture and licensing companies are made out to be the stereotypical faceless conglomerate that's just out to make money off of us.  They go on to say that these companies have only themselves to blame for their lack of revenue because they refuse to cater to us by offering us anime that's "hot off the press" and make us wait for ages to get our hands on stuff that's been out in Japan for quite a while.  And they expect us to PAY for this?  How dare they!

Listen, the licencing companies are doing the best they can and making smart decisions in regard to marketing a foreign product.  Keep in mind that they're marketing these products to non-Japanese people so you have to give them time to redub the dialogue in their country's native tongue.  The so-called "purists" probably don't care about this and would rather listen to the audio in the OJ but, again, the companies are marketing their product to a broader fanbase than just them.  Some of us prefer the dubbed version and including both a dubbed track for us as well as translated subtitles for the purists is sound marketing strategy that should satisfy everyone.  But dubbing takes time, moreso than subtitling.

As far as catering to fans, they're trying.  I've been buying anime for many years and I can tell you that things are very different now than they were 10 years ago.  Most series are being collected into a single set for the sake of convenience these days.  That's a lot less costly than having to shill out twenty bucks every couple of months to collect individual DVDs, especially when a series was spaced out over a half-dozen of them.  And in even more recent history these same box sets are being offered at a discounted rate as part of the S.A.V.E promotion that Funimation is running.

If anything the companies are making less money now than they used to.  A direct result of competiton from fansubs?  Probably.  They ARE still trying to make a profit, as any industry has the right, so I doubt that cutting our costs is not so much a way of helping us out as it is a shrewd business decision.  But we're the ones who profit in the end so why bother splitting hairs?

And then, on to the issue of getting new anime as soon as it's released.  That's not practical or cost-efficient at all.  I can recall back in the day when An OVA series on VHS could cost you $25 per tape, totaling around $100 for a 4-part series.  That's a hundred bucks for about an hour and a half of anime.  And we were willing to pay that because that's the only way we could get our anime fix, being the anime junkies that we were.  I doubt that amount could be charged in this day and age for an individual episode but I'd still rather wait a while for them to be collected into a more affordable and convenient package.  

These days DVDs are much more affordable but there's still the issue of receiving them in a timely manner.  Solution?  Online streaming.  This is something that's just begun only recently.  And it's being done to cater to us as fans.  It's still a fairly young practice so there's still room for improvement.  Perhaps online trade is the way of the future.  Singular episodes could be sold much the same as cell phone games for those who don't want to wait but so long as televisions exists the DVD/Blu Ray versions should not be allowed to die out.

So yeah, this whole argument about how the industry needs to take stock of the anime culture and conform to our demands is full of crap.  That's exactly what they're trying to do.  If you're paying attention to marketing trends you can plainly see that our wishes are being fulfilled, slowly but surely.  Is it so wrong to offer the people behind this a little support and gratitude for their services? Edited January 6, 2011 by The Tentacle

[rotlung]

Here is my 2 cents on this subject....

First of,f I'm not one to go out and buy an anime series. Granted I will watch a box set on Netflix but that is about it. If it wasn't for fansubbing sites I wouldn't watch anime. I might see something I like on Cartoon Networrk and watch the series. My point is I enjoy watching fansubs and also believe they give a better translation then dubbing.

I keep up with show I find interesting and get to watch them a day or so after they are released in Japan. I also get to see brand new series just released from Japan like IS: Infinate Stratos. It literally just was released on tv last week and I've watched the first episode a couple times. I couldn't ask for more.

Also on the whole dvd sales.... I have a feeling it won't be long before almost everything is streamed over an internet connection. I already have sites like hulu (which has quite a impressive anime collection might I add) which have shown a site can be profitable and legal. It is just a matter of time before these fansubbing site simplely go legit. I think that is what the anime companies should be pushing for rather then dvd sales.... Companies need to be forward thinking in order to survive. If they don't they will go the way of the dinosaur.

[The Tentacle]

One of the more popular arguments I hear in favor of fansubbing is that fans want to watch anime that's out right now in Japan instead of having to wait for it to be released in our native countries.  The previous posters stated this but I'm mainly going to respond to [url="http://www.theotaku.com/worlds/fheadarticles/view/4103/"]another article[/url] that Pleides linked me to.

Okay, so to sum it up the author of that particular essay wants to watch anime at the same time the Japanese are getting it because what's being released here stateside is old and outdated.  Let me ask this question:  WHY exactly are our domestic series old and outdated?  Because they've been seen already via unlicensed and illegal fansubs.

I don't, nor will I ever, watch fansubs.  Hence domestic releases are what is fresh and new to me.  I just got the third installment of [b]Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood[/b] from Amazon.com and I'm eagerly awaiting the release of [b]Highschool of the Dead[/b].  What's that?  Both of those series are out and have been out for ages and people in this country have already viewd both via a fansub?  Well, I haven't.  They're new to me and that's why I can enjoy them.  That's also why I don't need to watch any fansubs.  I'm satisfied with what I have. 

Do you see what I'm saying?  You watch a fansub series and then have no reason to buy the DVDs because it's old to you by the time it's released in your country.  Instead you watch another fansub series because that's what is new and fresh to you.  You catch yourself in this vicious cycle that will keep repeating itself over and over again until you kick the fansub habit.

Now granted, I am fully aware of many series that are out in Japan and available via fansub that I'm dying to watch.  The [b]new Fate Stay/Night movie[/b] and [b]Mai-Otome OVA[/b] in particular are sorely tempting me right about now.  I don't like having to wait for them any more than anyone else does.  But I will because I am content to watch the new releases that are available now while patiently waiting for stuff that's out right now in Japan to be licensed and produced overseas.  I accept the fact that what's out in Japan right now won't be available in America for a while and I can live with it.  

That's something that fansubbers don't understand.  Yet they go on demanding they be provided with episodes that are airing in Japan at the time they are being shown on Japanese television networks.  It's an incredibly unreasonable demand and, short of moving to Japan themselves, would be impossible for any licensing company to do for them.  Fansubbers go on demanding this nonetheless and continue to blame the distributors for the problem that was instigated by the fansubbers themselves.  

There's no need to accept a handout from someone after you've already robbed him blind.


But now there's hope on the horizon.  Fansubbers are finally being given what they're asking for in the way of video streaming.  It's profitable for the anime industry too and all perfectly legal.  But I'm guessing that this is going to become an issue to the current fansubbers as well.  

You say you want to watch anime as soon as it comes out in Japan?  Here it is.  You say you want it available online so you don't have to leave your house to get it?  Okay, here it is.  You say you're willing to pay for it so long as it's current and convenient?  Well.......that remains to be seen.

Streaming will not only be the perfect solution to this issue but it's going to be the filter through which honest anime fans can be seperated from the pirates who are stealing intellectual property for their own amusement.  Hopefully in the near future all the demands will have been met and all parties will be satisfied.

I wonder what excuse the fansubbers will come up with then. Edited January 8, 2011 by The Tentacle

[Sangome]

[quote name='rotlung' timestamp='1294492233' post='703711']
My point is I enjoy watching fansubs and also believe they give a better translation then dubbing.[/quote]

[color="#9932CC"][font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]I just wanted to point out that this is rather untrue. Now I'm not saying that English distributors don't mess up or adhere strictly to the Japanese script, because they certainly do flub up and certainly do take liberties from time to time [usually, though, it's for the sake of making the script flow better, sounding less stiff and awkward, etc], but companies also have professional translators on their staff. For subs, while I'm sure a good chunk of them are at least fluent in the Japanese language, are also subject to numerous mistranslations. There's one rather infamous case of the first [i]Ghost in the Shell[/i] TV series having translated a line about child abductions into [url=http://deanedward.multiply.com/photos/photo/65/1][u]mass naked child events[/u][/url] [link is SFW, don't worry]...and let's not even get started on all the troll subs out there.

Again, I'm not saying official English releases are exempt from this, nor am I saying all subtitlers are a bunch of blind idiots, because I know people that sub anime [HI DES!!!]. But neither side is perfect.[/font][/color] Edited January 8, 2011 by Sangome

[Katana]

[color=royalblue][size=1]Of course, we all know what the real issue is, and don't you pretend you don't. The real issue is, of course money. People want things for free. If it is online for them, they will go and get it and watch it online because hey, not having to shell out for a series? Awesome! Face it: In the olden days with a 26-episode series released on, say, six DVDs at $30 each, you're looking at about $180, nowdays with 13-episode thinkpaks at $60, it's about $120, if even that.

Now that's a broad generalization, because not everything in Japan is released in the US. Understandable, as not everything will find a market and will be worth it (hello ADV and Geneon). I'd be a massive hypocrite if I didn't say I watched subs, because hey, look at my current avatar and banner. Unfortunately, I don't think [i]Katanagatari[/i] will ever get a US release, and neither will [i]Allison & Lillia[/i], a series I reviewed for my stint on Anime-Pulse. These shows are just not highly marketable (the former more because of it's odd format). And if you don't get your show on TV, then chances of it breaking even are far less than before.

Fansubs are almost a necessary evil, since they expose a series that we're probably not going to get outside of Japan, and if they [i]do[/i] manage to get licensed, people know to get it. [i]Ouran High School Host Club[/i] was the first series I watched completely through fansubbed, and I jumped to get it when it was released in the US because I knew it was a show I liked. And yay, a dub!

If you're one of those "I don't like dubs" folks, I remind you that DVDs are released with the original Japanese and professional subtitles. Heck, some companies [i]only[/i] release their series on subs because dubbing is too expensive. You've got your options laid out handily.

One thing I will sympathize with is the fact that yeah, anime is expensive, and anime's target audience is a group that tends to not have a lot of expendable money (starting thereabouts in middle school and going through college as a broad age range). It can make purchasing and supporting a series very difficult. There are some good things, though: 1.) Anime these days is a lot cheaper than it used to be, especially since the advent of the thinpaks. 2.) Be thankful you don't live in Japan. DVDs there are ungodly expensive and only come with 2 episodes or so.

I could talk about this until I'm blue in the [s]font[/s] face, but I'm going to end it here. Phew.

(By the way, Netflix is a legit way to watch a show. You're paying for the service, so hey, if you have Netflix, more power to ya.)[/size][/color]

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Simulcast streams are great for the average viewer, but there are reasons why people might prefer other options besides piracy just for the sake of piracy. Probably the most common is that there's often stylistic differences in translation and some people prefer the "fansub style." Most streaming video looks like crap compared to a good encode from the Japanese TV source, so people who care about video quality are probably going to prefer fansubs or the simulcast scripts put together with better video. (Though I have to say, what I saw of ANN's 720p streams of Ore no Imouto looked pretty good.) Being able to download a file and then watch it offline can be much more convenient than having to load it as you watch, especially for people with slower connections. That's also made all the worse by Crunchyroll's and Funi's flash players being kind of crappyâ??or at least they were last time I used them. And there are probably more, but I think those are the main ones.

Does that justify the piracy? Not really, but you can't reasonably expect people to forgo a product they want in favor of one they don't out of moral obligation to some company.[/color]

[Shinmaru]

[quote name='Katana' timestamp='1294523065' post='703718']
[color=royalblue][size=1](By the way, Netflix is a legit way to watch a show. You're paying for the service, so hey, if you have Netflix, more power to ya.)[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Yep, Netflix instant streaming has a fair number of anime movies (I watched [b]Ghost in the Shell[/b] and [b]Ninja Scroll[/b] there), along with some series (though I haven't watched any of those), and of course DVDs can be rented from Netflix (I watched [b]Planetes[/b] and [b]Simoun[/b] this way, along with several Miyazaki movies).

[The Tentacle]

[quote name='Desbreko' timestamp='1294523684' post='703719'] [color="#4B0082"]Does that justify the piracy? Not really, but you can't reasonably expect people to forgo a product they want in favor of one they don't out of moral obligation to some company.[/color][/quote]

I'm winding down on this discussion and this touches on the last point I want to make.  To express that point I'll relate to you a story that best expresses how I feel.  ([i]Also, this is a completely true story.  No way fiction could compete with this bit of reality[/i].)

~

Down the road and across the river from my home there is a large flea mall that is open year round.  I collect exotic knives to decorate my house with so I frequent the place from time to time.  On one particular visit I chanced across a new vendor.  There, sprawled out across the top of a crude wooden table were a wide assortment of......crack pipes.

I'm a straight-edge so I don't condone the use of any sort of controlled substance.  Yet even to my eyes, which are uneducated in this area, it was obvious what these objects were.  And, to give credit where credit is due, they were pretty nice as far as crack pipes go.  Acrylic handles in a variety of colors with polished brass mouthpieces and bowls all laid out in rows for the customers to peruse. 

But it wasn't the fact that this guy was selling drug paraphernalia so blantantly that I found offensive.  No, it was the crude cardboard sign that was taped to the front of the table that I thought was most upsetting.  Written on the front of this sign in black magic marker was the disclaimer: "All merchandise for the consumption of tobaco products only!"  

Now looking at this cheaky vendor it was pretty obvious that what he was selling were indeed crack pipes designed expressely for the smoking of crack and that they were being markedt to the smokers of said crack.  Anyone could have seen that much and the poorly conceived lie that he was using to cover up this fact was what offended me.  I wanted to scream at him, "Those are crack pipes!  What do you think they're going to be used for?" but I held my peace and moved on. 

~

Much like this analogy I see fansubbing as yet another facet of piracy.  Fansubs are created from pirated video and marketed to the public at no cost.  It's clearly a theft of not only intellectual property but of revenue that would have been generated by licensed dealers.  That's a crime people.

It's also a fact of life.  Piracy will always exist in one form or another.  I accept that.  But what I don't accept is all of the propaganda that's being generated to gloss over the fact that fansubbing is illegal.  Now, it can be argued that fansubs do have some positive effects much like it is possible to smoke tobacco from a crack pipe.  But the bottom line is and always will be that fansubbing is form of piracy.  Nothing is going to change that.

You can put up any sort of disclaimer you want, saying the fansubs will be taken down once the series has been licensed and urging viewers to delete their files and buy the official product. But do you really think they're going to do that in the end?

Personally I have more respect for people who come right out and say "I watch fansubs because I refuse to pay for something when I can get for free," than I do for those who continue to insist that they're helping stimulate the industry in some form of fashion.  Whether you're doing it as a harmless hobby in your college dorm room or shilling illegal disks in a back alley to make a few quick bucks  the result is the same.

 It's still piracy.   Edited January 9, 2011 by The Tentacle

[Magus]

[quote name='The Tentacle' timestamp='1294527155' post='703722']
Personally I have more respect for people who come right out and say "I watch fansubs because I want to watch what I want, when I want and never pay for it," than I do for those who continue to insist that they're helping stimulate the industry in some form of fashion.
[/quote]

If that's what you wanted you could've just came to me (need devil smilie).

Seriously though, there was once a time where I never watched fansubs simply because I never liked the idea of watching anime in front of a computer (and I was a 56k user as well) and there was a chance that some good shows would pop up on Cartoon Network/Adult Swim (so much for that). Now that I have wireless and highspeed and that type of stuff, yeah, whatever. I'll take free any day of the week.

However, I just recently started renting anime from Blockbuster now so yeah. Edited January 8, 2011 by Magus

[rotlung]

[quote name='Magus' timestamp='1294527823' post='703723']
If that's what you wanted you could've just came to me (need devil smilie).

Seriously though, there was once a time where I never watched fansubs simply because I never liked the idea of watching anime in front of a computer (and I was a 56k user as well) and there was a chance that some good shows would pop up on Cartoon Network/Adult Swim (so much for that). Now that I have wireless and highspeed and that type of stuff, yeah, whatever. I'll take free any day of the week.

However, I just recently started renting anime from Blockbuster now so yeah.
[/quote]

most people were turned off by watching "tv programing" on a small computer screen. I personally solved that problem with a HDMI to DVI cable I bought off Newegg.com for like $12. Now my 38" flatscreen is my computer screen. It suddenly makes sites like Hulu and Netflix so much better cause i can sit and watch them with friends and family.

@Sangome

What I'm talking about in with the translation thing has 3 major parts.
1. words like Nakama don't have good translation in english. Literally translated it means friend (which is what One Piece uses in Dubbing) The word extends to companion, shipmate, partner etc. The subbing site I watch explained this before one of the episodes and that they weren't going to translate Nakama cause it didn't have a good translation.

2 vulger and curse words. In dubbing they intend most anime to be for kids. They exclude and rewrite things so they can be marketed to US childern. I remember watching DBZ uncut when I was in High school and my jaw dropped how much they cursed and the gore that when along with that series. Sexual situtions also fall into this catagory.

3. The fan sub work hard on some translations. In one episode of Black Lagoon, there is a part where the bad guy starts speaking spanish (It was another launguge than Japenese, can't remember 100%) He has this whole speech that reminded me of Boondock Saints, and at the end of the video there was a message that thanked several people helping him correctly translate the Spanish part due to how fast it was spoken and it's complicity.

Now i will grant some translations are off and just downright wrong. However other sites put a very hard effort in translating properly and teaching the veiwer about Japenese customs, sayings and word play (which always goes over my head...)

Finally @ Tentacle
If a website is able to create a demand like u described then I'm sure they are able to make plenty of money in ads on their site. It makes more sense to make everything digital and cut out the middle man and not have to produce actually DVD's. It cuts overhead and most likely makes the distributors as much money if not more thanks to the paid ads on all the fansites.

[Shinmaru]

For the record, fansubbers take GREAT liberties with cursing most of the time. There aren't anywhere near as many curse words in Japanese as there are in English (as I'm sure you can hear if you have a good ear and watch a fair amount of anime), and in context, most of them are about as mild as "Damn it!" or whatever. If you see Naruto or Goku dropping an F-bomb, or something, you can be assured that that's the fansubber's choice, because their dialogue ain't as crass as that. :p

Also, lol @ "in dubbing, they intend most anime to be for kids". Are you having fun posting from the year 2000? What's it like back then?

[Sangome]

[quote name='rotlung' timestamp='1294753252' post='703799']
1. words like Nakama don't have good translation in english. Literally translated it means friend (which is what One Piece uses in Dubbing) The word extends to companion, shipmate, partner etc. The subbing site I watch explained this before one of the episodes and that they weren't going to translate Nakama cause it didn't have a good translation.[/quote]

[color="#9932CC"][font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]Aha, but fansubs aren't exempt from this either. One of the most popular fansubs for [i]Lucky Star[/i] translated the term "tsundere" [basically meaning someone harsh on the outside, sweet on the inside, or vice-versa] into "bipolar". While one can argue that's basically what it is, it's kind of...a strange liberty to take, in my opinion.

And then let's not forget the infamous "keikakku means plan" bit from a [i]Death Note[/i] sub.[/font][/color]

[quote]2 vulger and curse words. In dubbing they intend most anime to be for kids. They exclude and rewrite things so they can be marketed to US childern. I remember watching DBZ uncut when I was in High school and my jaw dropped how much they cursed and the gore that when along with that series. Sexual situtions also fall into this catagory. [/quote]

[color="#9932CC"][font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]"In dubbing they intend most anime to be for kids"? Um, what? Like Shin said, back in...2000, that'd be applicable, but in 2011? Uhh, no, unless all the anime you see on TV is stuff dubbed by 4kids.

Anyway, I think you're getting it confused with stuff that would have to be censored on a usual US broadcast, whether it was for kids or not. That's usually handled by the channel themselves, and not the licensor. There's just some stuff you [i]can't[/i] show on cable TV. Granted, the intensity of these edits depends on what time of day it airs [and yes, the target demographic to a certain extent, but that also applies to the time of day it airs], but some stuff just [i]has[/i] to be cut. Not even Adult Swim is exempt from this; I remember Kim Manning seeming to say once that she was very interested in obtaining [i]Elfen Lied[/i], a show notorious for its gore and nudity, but an FCC rep said it would have to be censored so much, it'd barely be recognizable.

Also, it should be noted that Japanese broadcasts themselves are actually very strict on what can and cannot be shown on TV as well, believe it or not, and they're trying to crack down on it with this Tokyo youth ordinance bill or whatever it's called. As much as people want to think that skull splitting gore or full frontal nudity goes completely uncensored on Japanese television, it doesn't. Not on basic cable, anyway. [Or however it works there.]

So yeah, editing for broadcast =/= censoring for it to be marketable to children.[/color][/font]

[Nony]

I was gonna go on for a long paragraph about some economics-type stuff, but it's a repetitive point anyway. Instead, I'll go on for a long paragraph about something else that will hopefully be relevant!

Here's a personal example: I buy basically every single .hack product that comes stateside, not to mention plenty of imported goods (like soundtracks). This is my message to any American licensing and distribution companies (and possibly even the Japanese companies too) that, "Hey, I like this series. Bring me more of this and I will eagerly hand over my cash." That's about all I can do and it's mostly worked thus far, to the point where even American .hack fans can legally get their hands on [i]most[/i] of the .hack series in English (most of it, anyway).

But it also really helps that there's not much of a competition when it comes to scanlations. There's been hardly any effort that I've seen toward scanlating .hack manga, and the efforts that have been made are so slow that soon enough the American company surpasses them in progress and quality. Nevermind fan translations of novels! That hardly ever happens with [i]any[/i] series as far as I know.
I can't say the fansub market is as dry, though; I think every .hack animation has been fansubbed at one point or another... but either way, we've still gotten most of the .hack anime released on DVD here within a reasonable time.

So, basically, if you're a .hack fan, the companies have you in the palm of their hands. There is very little competition in the ways of scanlations and fansubs for their products; and hey, I'm happy as long as they bring over the stuff I want. However, this sort of case is more rare in these days, I think. It really depends on how much people value actually buying and owning an anime product. And frankly, it's not their job to buy everything that's out there; I certainly don't. I buy what I want, that's it (it just so happens that .hack eats up a lot of the little spending money I have).

Similarly, it's not the company's job to let you have anime for free; they're a business after all. Therefore, as a business what they need to do is find a way to get people to watch their anime products in a way that makes them money that also competes with fansubs. And, frankly, no matter what they do or how successful they may be in providing such a service, I can't imagine they'll ever completely eliminate the people who simply want it for free, or who don't value it enough to spend money on it. And to that I say oh well, there's not much you can do to change those people's minds. I guess you could try getting them arrested for stealing, but I don't really know how you'd go about doing that, to be honest.

Goodness gracious, I hope this was relevant... uhhhhh so basically, fansubs: good or bad? Ehhh, good for exposure of certain shows and advertising, bad in that the company doesn't do any actual advertising for themselves and in that people simply watch fansubs, never buying anything ever which will result in a reduction or destruction of the American anime market. Or something like that. Edited January 12, 2011 by Miss Anonymous

[Desbreko]

[quote name='rotlung' timestamp='1294753252' post='703799']1. words like Nakama don't have good translation in english. Literally translated it means friend (which is what One Piece uses in Dubbing) The word extends to companion, shipmate, partner etc. The subbing site I watch explained this before one of the episodes and that they weren't going to translate Nakama cause it didn't have a good translation.[/quote]
[color=#4B0082]The group's translator is an idiot if he thinks "nakama" can't be translated well. (Protip: You don't have to use the same English word every time you translate a Japanese word. If the meaning in Japanese changes with context, so too should the English word change to reflect that.) Nearly every time I've seen a fansub claim something can't be accurately translated, it's been due to their own incompetence or laziness rather than there really being no good way to translate it.

Incidentally, the more Japanese I pick up from watching anime and stuff, the more I find myself preferring professional translations that don't leave as much untranslated. Of course, some are just plain bad (CR's Nogizaka Haruka Purezza, anyone?), and on rare occasions a fansub translation will actually be better than the official one, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.[/color]

[The Tentacle]

[quote name='Miss Anonymous' timestamp='1294816119' post='703837']
Goodness gracious, I hope this was relevant... uhhhhh so basically, fansubs: good or bad? Ehhh, good for exposure of certain shows and advertising, bad in that the company doesn't do any actual advertising for themselves and in that people simply watch fansubs, never buying anything ever which will result in a reduction or destruction of the American anime market. Or something like that.
[/quote]

It is indeed relevant and does a lot to sum up the current situation.  I'm a very possessive guy when it comes to anime.  I collect DVDs so when I come across a series I like I naturally want to add it to my collection.  It's a vice, same as any other.  And as with any other vice it's something I tend to spend quite a bit of money on.  That's why I tend to side with licensing companies over fansubbers.  I don't like seeing the source of my vice being threatened in any way.  


I would imagine it's the same with those who watch fansubs.  Although you may not be willing (or able) to spend a lot of money on anime you still want to watch it.  Having a stable supply is important and so long as you're satisfied with just watching a show rather than owning it fansubs are a good source.  Getting something you want at no cost to you without having to leave your house is an offer few can refuse.  It's only human nature and I can't really complain about people who view fansubs.

But as Miss Anonymous points out its the fansubbers themselves who are causing the licensing companies grief.  They're creating competition by essentially bypassing the licensing procedure and producing anime outside of Japan and offering it at no cost.  That's an unbeatable marketing strategy even if it is illegal.  And, as stated, it's an offer few can refuse.

My question is "why?" though.  What do fansubbers get from all of this?  What's their goal?  Seems like a lot of work for little reward and could also land them in a lot of trouble with the law to boot.  Will fansubbing stop if series being aired in Japan are simulcast internationally via online streaming?  Will fans be willing to pay for online anime if legitimate sites offer them the same services as fansubbers but with a higher level of quality?

As long as fansubs exist I would expect people to choose them over an officially licensed product.  But I'm curious as to how much longer fansubbers will keep plying their trade.  If the concept of online streaming was indeed brought about to compete with them it might very well be the fansubbers who will go the way of the dinosaur as licensing companies flex their corporate muscles and take over what has, until now, been their domain.

If that happens fansubs won't disappear entirely but some of the larger sites may be shut down and copyright laws be more heavily enforced.  Eliminating the competition is also an unbeatable market strategy after all. Edited January 12, 2011 by The Tentacle

[Katana]

[quote name='The Tentacle' timestamp='1294862269' post='703845']
My question is "why?" though.  What do fansubbers get from all of this?  What's their goal?  Seems like a lot of work for little reward and could also land them in a lot of trouble with the law to boot.  Will fansubbing stop if series being aired in Japan are simulcast internationally via online streaming?  Will fans be willing to pay for online anime if legitimate sites offer them the same services as fansubbers but with a higher level of quality?[/quote]
[size=1][color=royalblue]My simple answers to every question you raise:
1.) Because.
2.) Pride.
3.) Something.
4.) No.
5.) Hell no.

My real answers:

The reason people fansub is because they know there is a "market" for what they do. Look at the breakdown of the word: "fan" and "sub". Look at the breakdown of other common words used in fandom: "fan" and "fiction", "fan" and "art", "fan" and "comics", "fan" and "wank" - you get the idea.

Anybody who draws fanart or writes fanfiction does it for one reason or another, but primarily, it is usually because of the love of a work that you do it. You draw a picture because you want to and because you really like the show. You write a story using the characters because you like the characters and want to do something with them. You don't do it for money because there is rarely going to be any. You do it for love, or, if you're like that, for fame.

They're pretty basic motivators. Anything you put in public is partly motivated because you want to show people, meaning you want people to like it, and therefore you want to be that much more known.

But let it be known that you are [i]technically[/i] doing copyright infringement. This is why the topic of [i]selling[/i] fanart is a sore one, because it is technically illegal. [i]However[/i], it is a bit more loose because you, yourself, the artist or the writer, actually made what you're selling, so therefore, you're selling your work that has the image somebody else made. I think that's why people tend to turn a blind eye to those types of things because it's pretty much free promotion that they had no real hand in.

Fansubs, on the other hand, aren't like that. The subbers didn't [i]make[/i] the anime (or draw the manga). They didn't write the stories. They didn't do the voice acting. All they're doing is translating it. But their motivation, I believe, is still pretty much the same; they're doing what they're doing out of love for the show and wanting to spread it to the masses. The problem is that they're not promoting people to watch the product, they're just giving out the product.

The industry [i]has[/i] been cracking down, though. Manga Fox and OneManga were told a few months ago to get rid of all their stuff that was licensed in the US, and they did comply before legal action was taken. However, dragging the law into this is oftentimes not worth it, especially considering how small the anime industry honestly is in the US. Sometimes, the end is just not worth the means, which is probably a deterrent from actual legal action going on.
[/color][/size]