Controversy is the word of the day!

[k9*]

i feel a need to weigh in here - rapists do ejaculate when their victims are fighting, and not all victims are able to fight back, for one reason or an other.

and as most rapes are never reported (i swear it's the one crime where the victim is put on trial if they do report it), to qualify eligibility for an abortion on that basis would case great harm to the woman who is forced to carry a child of rape to birth, both mentally and physically, as well as cause false claims of rape by those who just want birth control

ummmm.....i'm done :babble: for right now

[Defcon5]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i]
[B]

The difference between a dumpster baby and an aborted baby is quite a major one. As previously stated, abortions are done quite early, within the first trimester. A fetus can be aborted before it's developed significantly. Dumpster babies are children who are actually fully developed.

To throw a (most likely) living child(not fetus) into a garbage can is even more barbaric in my opinion. Once that child is born it definitely has rights as a person and one of those rights is the right to live.

Furthermore, even when using protection(such as a condom) there is always the possibility of conception. What if the condom breaks? You see, the only way to guarantee that there is no pregnancy is abstinance(which is barely practiced). [/B][/QUOTE]


In my eyes it is alive. And to me there really isn't to much of a difference. They are both dead. And they shouldn't really be having casual sex in the first place so there shouldn't be a need for a condom in the first place.

[XxmagentaxX]

I think that it is the womans choice if she wants to get an abortion or not.. IT'S HER BODY!! She can do whatever she wants to it... No matter how she conceived the baby. I think that it is wrong how you saw that she can't when none of you have ever been in that situation.. It's her body not yours...
It's the womans body she can do what she wants to it and if she doesn't want to have the baby she doesn't have to.

[amiboshi]

I agree with Forest Pixie;women should be able to choose, since it is their body. Men couldn't understand this part of abortion. Giving birth is very hard, and women should have the choice about going through that pain or not. I don't like abortion, though. There are precautions you can take to not get pregnant, unless you're raped. Then it would be sort of just to have an abortion. But still, there are several ways to not get pregnant, and it's your own fault if you don't use them. It's still awful to kill something that could have been a person, had you let it live. It's just kind of disgusting. So.....I don't know which way I am about this.....

[Defcon5]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Forest_Pixie [/i]
[B]I think that it is the womans choice if she wants to get an abortion or not.. IT'S HER BODY!! She can do whatever she wants to it... No matter how she conceived the baby. I think that it is wrong how you saw that she can't when none of you have ever been in that situation.. It's her body not yours...
It's the womans body she can do what she wants to it and if she doesn't want to have the baby she doesn't have to. [/B][/QUOTE]

So that means I could shoot myself. It's my body I can do what ever I want to it.

[XxmagentaxX]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Defcon5 [/i]
[B]

So that means I could shoot myself. It's my body I can do what ever I want to it. [/B][/QUOTE]

exactly.. It's your body do what want to it...

But I don't highly reccomned shooting yourself

[Defcon5]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Forest_Pixie [/i]
[B]

exactly.. It's your body do what want to it...

But I don't highly reccomned shooting yourself [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly my point. Just becasue you can do it doesn't mean you should.

[XxmagentaxX]

sorry but there is a big difference between shooting yourself and a woman getting an abortion!

[Defcon5]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Forest_Pixie [/i]
[B]sorry but there is a big difference between shooting yourself and a woman getting an abortion! [/B][/QUOTE]

Is there? They both result in the ending of a life.

[XxmagentaxX]

I don't want to get into an argument.
Everyone has their own veiws and opinons on Abortion.. whether it is right or wrong..
and no one will ever agree

[Defcon5]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Forest_Pixie [/i]
[B]I don't want to get into an argument.
Everyone has their own veiws and opinons on Abortion.. whether it is right or wrong..
and no one will ever agree [/B][/QUOTE]

True words True words.....

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Defcon5 [/i]
[B]

So that means I could shoot myself. It's my body I can do what ever I want to it. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]Uhh...precisely. lol

It's her body. Not yours. :)[/color]

[XxmagentaxX]

I don't understand why people care so much if a woman gets an abortion... I mean it doesn't involve you. It's none of your business anyway... So why do you people care so much??

[Defcon5]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Forest_Pixie [/i]
[B]I don't understand why people care so much if a woman gets an abortion... I mean it doesn't involve you. It's none of your business anyway... So why do you people care so much?? [/B][/QUOTE]

Becasue it's death. it's like asking why do you care so much about those people who died in the WTC. They weren't your family. But now they wont have any more life. just as an aborted baby wont have life either.

[Turkey]

[QUOTE]I don't understand why people care so much if a woman gets an abortion... I mean it doesn't involve you. It's none of your business anyway... So why do you people care so much?? [/QUOTE]

I'll have to answer this with an scenario (sp?):

You are walking to your house. Only a few more blocks. Suddenly, a person jumps out of the bushes with a knife. He wants to kill you. You see lots of people passing by and none of them helps you, because it's not their business.

That is what you are saying.

Since I was a little kid I was teached "don't do to others what you wouldn't like them to do to you". It also works vice-versa.

I have a friend who was almost an abortion for birth-risks; and guess what, she's a perfectly normal person. Remember that you were once a fetus and you could have been chopped into pieces (another common method for abortion).

Sorry for the long rant:babble: ...

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Smoky Joe [/i]
[B]
Remember that you were once a fetus and you could have been chopped into pieces (another common method for abortion).

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]

Uh...no, that isn't a method for abortion. :) Perhaps for a backyard abortion (which no abortionist would approve of anyway). That "fact" is just a common example of propaganda used to scare pro-choice people. It has no basis in truth.

Having said that, the argument you bring up is also fairly moot.

You're talking about an adult person (one who may have children relying on them, who will no doubt have a family they are leaving behind) who is being physically attacked and murdered.

The situation is different with abortion.

In this situation, you're talking about a physiological condition whereby a parasitic being is attached to the mother's body. The parasite is effectively living off the mother's body.

Therefore, in this situation, the mother as the host has the option to choose whether or not she wishes to act as host to that fetus.

A simple act of murder is very different.

Also, do you know the fetus personally? Have you had conversations with it? You're talking about (in most cases) a bunch of cells rather than a human being.

You may think my last point was pointless...and you'll probably say "no, but it's still a human life" etc...but that brings me back to my original argument. The basis of the anti-choice argument is "but it's life". If that's the case, then, as I said...don't pick flowers, eat meat or kill hair lice. All of these things are life...and the hair lice is a parasite. Why should human cells be classed differently than the cells of other organisms?

Of course, if you took a born child and murdered it...that would be very different (or if the baby was almost fully developed). But before the baby is technically a human being (first trimester), it's really a case of apples and oranges, so to speak. You're talking about a living thing, yes...but you have to draw a definition.

People also talk about "potential life". But how far can this concept go? I mean, a man and a woman passing each other in the street could even be considered "potential life" or "a baby waiting to happen". As you can see...it all gets a bit ridiculous when you think about it.

And I'm sure that a woman who's just found out she's pregnant...and who has either suffered rape or who is pretty ill due to pregnancy would not appreciate you telling her that she isn't allowed to make a choice about her own body. :)[/color]

[Defcon5]

Comparing flowers to humans? I think that is pretty moot. If human cells shouldn't be considered higher then plant cells then why should a baby out of the womb be considered higher then one in the womb. That baby could also grow up and have a family to depend on it just like the person walking on the street. Someone walking past another person on the street is not a chance for a baby. And I don't know about everyone else but I think that a woman getting an abortion after a cocieving it during casual sex is wrong. If they are raped or the mom could die giving birth then that's another story.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Defcon5 [/i]
[B]Comparing flowers to humans? I think that is pretty moot. If human cells shouldn't be considered higher then plant cells then why should a baby out of the womb be considered higher then one in the womb. That baby could also grow up and have a family to depend on it just like the person walking on the street. Someone walking past another person on the street is not a chance for a baby. And I don't know about everyone else but I think that a woman getting an abortion after a cocieving it during casual sex is wrong. If they are raped or the mom could die giving birth then that's another story. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]I'm not comparing flowers to humans. I'm comparing [b]fetuses[/b] to flowers. There is a difference between a newly-developing bunch of cells and a fully-formed human child. :)

And yes, the baby could end up having the family to depend on etc etc...but sometimes the unborn baby is better off not being born. Especially in a situation whereby the parents are unable to look after the child, or if the child has some sort of genetic condition. Remember: not all parents are good parents. :)

Also, the walking along the street thing wasn't a rebuttal to you directly -- I'm trying to say that the whole argument of when life starts or doesn't start is utterly pointless.

And I don't agree with a woman aborting just because she had casual sex and behaved foolishly. But if the woman were very young (say 15/16) then in that situation, I may support the idea.

But yeah, if the mother was raped or in danger of dying...then yes...you have no right to tell her what to do.

But also, even if she had casual sex and had a baby...even if you don't agree with her reasons for aborting, you STILL have no right to tell her she can't do it. It's a slipperly slope: when you tell people how to use their own bodies, you're getting into a very dangerous area. :)[/color]

[Charles]

Well, many come to the conclusion that, "It's the woman's body and she has a right to do what she wants with it." It [I]is[/I] scary thinking about the government limiting one's freedom to their own body. Even though I'm pro-choice I want to examine this objectively and bring up an argument that I have heard against the point.

What about the father's rights? It's obvious that a male bears part of the responsibility in creating the life, so technically shouldn't he also have a say in the child's destiny?

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i]
[B]

What about the father's rights? It's obvious that a male bears part of the responsibility in creating the life, so technically shouldn't he also have a say in the child's destiny? [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]That is a very good point to raise within the context of this discussion.

I believe that the father essentially has no rights when it comes to the decision of whether or not to abort -- and I say that only because while the baby might be 50% of the father's genes, so to speak, it's still a parasite on the woman's body. So it still remains her choice, whether people like it or not.

But the child's destiny is a slightly different area. The question is really, what role does the father play in deciding to abort the child? By that I mean, if the father is prepared to play an active role in the child's life...does that/should that influence the mother's choice?

A lot of fathers don't live up to their responsibilities. So I personally think that many fathers have much to answer for in this area.[/color]

[Duo Maxwell]

ok everyone keeps saying that they should use a comdom while having casual sex, who's the one thats meant to wear it?
guys!
so don't blame women for getting pregnant, ok sure we should remind them to wear one, but they break.
and yes contraseption pills would be good to but alot of people are embaressed to go to their doctors about it, I would because my doctor is a guy, so you're pretty much saying to the doctor "I'm planning to have sex sometime this week."
you know I'd give anything to see a guy have a baby, like in the movie junior.

people should just acept that abortion is something you can't get rid of, the world is over populated and alot of people have abortions, so thats alot mor people in the world if they couldn't/didn't have one.

one thing I hate is the fact that what james said about fathers not living up to responsibilities is true I have only one friend who's father hasn't [i]cheated[/i] or left their mum, I'm just glad my dad hasn't, I can't live without him as my fater figure, actually I can't live without having dad! so that would sorta make me "daddies little girl" true as it is I'm not denying it

[velvet paws]

Just another word on the matter...

One of my ex girlfriends recently had an abortion...she's 2 weeks younger than me, she'll be 16 in May...it was an 'oops' with a guy she had only been dating 2 weeks (although they had been close friends for 4 months)....both parties agreed on the idea.....it's been done...she'll have a few mental issues about it but she can carry on with her life and finish school in 2 months and break up with her bf (he's been treating her like sh!t lately) and just everything can be normal again...she can live her life. If she had decided to keep the baby her whole future would be compensated and she would feel that she had to stay with this guy even though she deserves better.

I still say it's a good thing!

[original post on page 1 of this topic]

[k9*]

chiming back in here...

i'm suprised that no1 has brought up these facts:

just carrying a pregnancy is life threatening - hemorages, tubal pregnancies, anemia, etc., etc.

giving birth is also life threatening in the best of times - look at historical death rates of women, around the world most still die during pregnancy and childbirth

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by k9* [/i]
[B]chiming back in here...

i'm suprised that no1 has brought up these facts:

just carrying a pregnancy is life threatening - hemorages, tubal pregnancies, anemia, etc., etc.

giving birth is also life threatening in the best of times - look at historical death rates of women, around the world most still die during pregnancy and childbirth [/B][/QUOTE]

That's interesting, but do you honestly think that abortion doesn't have it's risks as well? I'll put up specific facts to illustrate. You'll be surprised at the huge risks that come with abortion. The fact of the matter is that mostly everything in life has risks.

[B]DEATH[/B]

The leading causes of abortion related deaths are hemorrhage, infection, embolism, anesthesia, and undiagnosed ectopic pregnancies. Legal abortion is reported as the fifth leading cause of maternal death in the United States, though in fact it is recognized that most abortion related deaths are not officially reported as such.


[B]BREAST CANCER[/B]

For women aborting a first pregnancy, the risk of breast cancer almost doubles after a first-trimester abortion and is multiplied with two or more abortions. This risk is especially great for women who do not have children. Some recent studies have refuted this finding, but the majority of studies support a connection.3 More on abortion and breast cancer.


[B]CERVICAL, OVARIAN, AND LIVER CANCER[/B]

Women with one abortion face a 2.3 relative risk of cervical cancer, compared to non-aborted women, and women with two or more abortions face a 4.92 relative risk. Similar elevated risks of ovarian and liver cancer have also been linked to single and multiple abortions. These increased cancer rates for post-aborted women are apparently linked to the unnatural disruption of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy and untreated cervical damage. More on cervical cancer.


[B]UTERINE PERFORATION[/B]

Between 2 and 3% of all abortion patients may suffer perforation of their uterus, yet most of these injuries will remain undiagnosed and untreated unless laparoscopic visualization is performed.5 The risk of uterine perforation is increased for women who have previously given birth and for those who receive general anesthesia at the time of the abortion.6 Uterine damage may result in complications in later pregnancies and may eventually evolve into problems which require a hysterectomy, which itself may result in a number of additional complications and injuries including osteoporosis.


[B]CERVICAL LACERATIONS[/B]

Significant cervical lacerations requiring sutures occur in at least one percent of first trimester abortions. Lesser lacerations, or micro fractures, which would normally not be treated may also result in long term reproductive damage. Latent post-abortion cervical damage may result in subsequent cervical incompetence, premature delivery and complications during labor. The risk of cervical damage is greater for teenagers, for second trimester abortions, and when practitioners fail to use laminaria for dilation of the cervix.


[B]PLACENTA PREVIA[/B]

Abortion increases the risk of placenta previa in later pregnancies (a life threatening condition for both the mother and her wanted pregnancy) by seven to fifteen fold. Abnormal development of the placenta due to uterine damage increases the risk of fetal malformation, perinatal death, and excessive bleeding during labor.


[B]HANDICAPPED NEWBORNS IN LATER PREGNANCIES[/B]

Abortion is associated with cervical and uterine damage which may increase the risk of premature delivery, complications of labor and abnormal development of the placenta in later pregnancies. These type of reproductive complications are the leading causes of handicaps among newborns.


[B]ECTOPIC PREGNANCY[/B]

Abortion is significantly related to an increased risk of subsequent ectopic pregnancies. Ectopic pregnancies, in turn, are life threatening and may result in reduced fertility. More on ectopic pregnancy.


[B]PELVIC INFLAMMATORY DISEASE (PID)[/B]

PID is a potentially life threatening disease which can lead to an increased risk of ectopic pregnancy and reduced fertility. Of patients who have a chlamydia infection it the time of the abortion, 23% will develop PID within 4 weeks. Studies have found that 20 to 27% of patients seeking abortion have a chlamydia infection. Approximately 5% of patients who are not infected by chlamydia develop PID within 4 weeks after a first trimester abortion. It is therefore reasonable to expect that abortion providers should screen for and treat such infections prior to an abortion. 11 More on pelvic inflammatory disease.


[B]ENDOMETRITIS[/B]

Endometritis is a post-abortion risk for all women, but especially for teenagers, who are 2.5 times more likely than women 20-29 to acquire endometritis following abortion.12


[B]IMMEDIATE COMPLICATIONS[/B]

Approximately 10% of women undergoing elective abortion will suffer immediate complications, of which approximately one-fifth (2%) are considered life threatening. The nine most common major complications which can occur at the time of an abortion are: infection, excessive bleeding, embolism, ripping or perforation of the uterus, anesthesia complications, convulsions, hemorrhage, cervical injury, and endotoxic shock. The most common "minor" complications include: infection, bleeding, fever, second degree burns, chronic abdominal pain, vomiting, gastrointestinal disturbances, and Rh sensitization.


[B]INCREASED RISKS FOR WOMEN OBTAINING MULTIPLE ABORTIONS[/B]

In general, most of the studies cited above reflect risk factors for women who undergo a single abortion. These same studies show that women who have multiple abortions face a much greater risk of experiencing these complications. This point is especially noteworthy since approximately 45% of all abortions are repeats.


[B]INCREASED RISKS FOR TEENAGERS[/B]

Teenagers, who account for about 30 percent of all abortions, are also at much high risk of suffering many abortion related complications. This is true of both immediate complications, and of long-term reproductive damage.


[B]INCREASED RISK FOR CONTRIBUTING HEALTH RISK FACTORS[/B]

Abortion is significantly linked to behavioral changes such as promiscuity, smoking, drug abuse, and eating disorders which all contribute to increased risks of health problems.15 For example, promiscuity and abortion are each linked to increased rates of PID and ectopic pregnancies. Which contributes most is unclear, but apportionment may be irrelevant if the promiscuity is itself a reaction to post-abortion trauma or loss of self esteem.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by velvet paws [/i]
[B]Just another word on the matter...

One of my ex girlfriends recently had an abortion...she's 2 weeks younger than me, she'll be 16 in May...it was an 'oops' with a guy she had only been dating 2 weeks (although they had been close friends for 4 months)....both parties agreed on the idea.....it's been done...she'll have a few mental issues about it but she can carry on with her life and finish school in 2 months and break up with her bf (he's been treating her like sh!t lately) and just everything can be normal again...she can live her life. If she had decided to keep the baby her whole future would be compensated and she would feel that she had to stay with this guy even though she deserves better.

I still say it's a good thing!

[original post on page 1 of this topic] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]I understand completely. In circumstances like this, the introduction of a baby into the girl's life could quite easily have caused major problems for her.

I think the fact is, whether people like it or not (and of course, I don't always support it in every situation), abortion is something that [b]must[/b] remain legal. It must remain legal because sometimes it's necessary and also, as I said before, if we start telling women what they can and can't do with their own bodies, we are approaching a very slipperly slope when it comes to Government controls.

Therefore, there are many reasons which aren't always directly related to birth itself which mean that abortion has to remain legal. Certainly, you could argue that it's a "necessary evil" in society -- and women who do not believe in it do not have to be involved. To some extent, the same goes for men. If you don't agree with abortion, then you have the responsibility not to have casual sex or at least to use as much protection as possible.

But for reasons stated above, it's unfair (and potentially problematic) to stop others from using abortion if they need to.[/color]