Gays in the military/ Gay adoption

[Bluewizard]

I have a lot of extreme liberalist friends, and extreme conservative friends. This being my situation, I often find myself bombarded from two sides by political views and here is one that interests me. I am currently leaning against gays in the military/adoption. I want anyone that will to convince me otherwise, or help continue to support this veiw. Heres some reasons against gays in the military/adoption:
-If a gay couple adopts, the child is raised in a family without a mother, and mothers play an important role in a childs mind, and also the kid (if male), is then going to grow up to be gay and this deprives them of right of choice.
-In the military, gays are liable to violence from other army members, and cause great uncomfortability among straight military men. Segregation of the armed forces would only cause (like in all segregation of schools), an inherent feeling of inferiority among the gay men.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bluewizard [/i]
[B] -If a gay couple adopts, the child is raised in a family without a mother, and mothers play an important role in a childs mind, and also the kid (if male), is then going to grow up to be gay and this deprives them of right of choice.
-In the military, gays are liable to violence from other army members, and cause great uncomfortability among straight military men. Segregation of the armed forces would only cause (like in all segregation of schools), an inherent feeling of inferiority among the gay men. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]

Okay, I'll answer both points.

First point:

I see what you're saying, and I agree that any child should have the influence of a male and female.

But...

There are many single parent families in the world. And I have seen countless single parent families which are actually less dysfunctional than "traditional" families.

Moreover, if you have a mother and a really involved uncle/grandparent for example, the same effect is created. It's no different to having a father -- as long as there is that male influence.

As for "growing up to be gay", that's utterly ridiculous. You can't [i]teach or instill[/i] sexuality on [i]anyone[/i]. This is a common misconception that annoys me. Sexuality is something you are born with -- regardless of your parentage, you can turn out either way.

If growing up with gay parents made you gay, then why do most gay people grow up with straight parents? (and sometimes very conservative straight parents). This single example ultimately disproves that above point.

As for gays in the military, your view is rather unique. Most people who oppose gays in the military do so because they think that they will "fall in love" with their comrades and that will make them "weaker" in battle.

Of course, that's also a pretty ridiculous point. If that were the case, then what would be the situation between males and females in the armed forces? You could use that argument to deny women from entering the defence force, but of course...most people understand that those in the forces are professionals who understand these issues. If a woman isn't going to fall in love with every man in the defence force, neither is a gay man.

As for straight men feeling uncomfortable...well, the only straight men who feel uncomfy about homosexuality are those who are unsure of their own sexuality. So my message would be "get over it". :)[/color]

[The Darkness Bu]

*distamt clapping is heard*

Well said Sir James.

[Bluewizard]

Are you sure sexuality can not be influenced? I thought I heard somewhere that you could choose your own sexuality if you really wanted to, or that your conditions while growing up would influence sexuality. Does this mean there is nothing around the stereotype of people going to "all boys schools", and coming out gay?
And as for the bit about the only people who are uncomfortable around gay men being uncomfortable about their own sexuality; I am not sure whether to take that personaly or not. I am reletively secure in my own sexuality, and I feel uncomfortable changing or sleeping near (not just being around, I'm cool with that), anyone who is sexually attracted to my gender, and I don't return the feelings.
Good points! I am still not completely convinced either way but thanx!:)

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bluewizard [/i]
[B]Are you sure sexuality can not be influenced? I thought I heard somewhere that you could choose your own sexuality if you really wanted to, or that your conditions while growing up would influence sexuality. Does this mean there is nothing around the stereotype of people going to "all boys schools", and coming out gay?
And as for the bit about the only people who are uncomfortable around gay men being uncomfortable about their own sexuality; I am not sure whether to take that personaly or not. I am reletively secure in my own sexuality, and I feel uncomfortable changing or sleeping near (not just being around, I'm cool with that), anyone who is sexually attracted to my gender, and I don't return the feelings.
Good points! I am still not completely convinced either way but thanx!:) [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]No, your sexuality can't be influenced. Tell me, no matter how hard I try, can I teach you to enjoy having sex with men more than women?

Of course I can't.

A lot of the religious-right try to maintain that sexuality is chosen, so that they can inforce their zero-tolerance of alternative sexuality. But this idea has no basis in reality.

Also, with regard to being uncomfortable changing or sleeping near someone who is attracted to your gender, you must remember one very important thing.

If you sleep near a girl, do you assume that she is attracted to you? Or that she will run up and sleep with you given the chance?

Nope.

Same goes for anyone else. I think it's kind of offensive when people assume that homosexuals are somehow crazed pedophiles or sexual deviots...and that's just not the case.

Just as you don't fall for every girl you see, a gay man doesn't fall for every guy he sees. :)

I hope I'm not sounding condescending or whatever...I mean, you seem to be a pretty "open to education" person, which is really good.

I guess I am just sick of people being intolerant for what are essentially such small differences...people always love focusing on the differences between people, but they never focus on the similarities...which are far greater.

We're all human beings. If gay people want to have children, or be involved in the military, or get married...who cares. If they are truly good people who do the right thing, then I think that's all that matters.

All of this "gays shouldn't do this 'cuz it's not moral, blah blah blah" stuff is just a waste of time. We're all human beings, let's start treating each other with some basic dignity.[/color]

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bluewizard [/i]
[B]Are you sure sexuality can not be influenced? I thought I heard somewhere that you could choose your own sexuality if you really wanted to, or that your conditions while growing up would influence sexuality. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Lol, no, you can't choose your sexuality. You can choose to [i]ignore[/i] your sexuality, but that's an entirely different matter.

The condtions while growing up can't influence your sexuality either...they CAN influence how open or accepting you are with or being around a homosexual person, but honestly...you cannot choose it.[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bluewizard [/i]
[B]-If a gay couple adopts, the child is raised in a family without a mother, and mothers play an important role in a childs mind, and also the kid (if male), is then going to grow up to be gay and this deprives them of right of choice.[/b][/quote]

This is totally NOT true. It has been PROOVEN that children who grow up in gay ouseholds do not turn out gay. What about lesbian parents. There is two mothers... by your analysis, this should be a BETTER household than any "normal" heterosexual one. I have seen boys and girls grow up in gay households who turn out to be straight. I will not go into a spew about whether or not someone chooses to be gay.... I know that some do ignore their sexuality as BabyGirl said... I didn't... and I grew up in a heterosexual family. Growing up in a gay family does nothing for the child but give them an open mind. Something that shows how smart and mature they are... unlike closeminded people who do nothing but make a$ses of themselves. Regardless, allowing gay adoptions would do more good than bad... regardless of that bullshit "family values" that the President shoves down the throats of the American Public.... thats crap... thats his opinion, and living in America, he should decided what WE, as people, free, can live our lives. By the way, descriminating against gays breaks about 6 constitutional laws in the USA. However, nothing is ever done because people are afraid of what might happen to them if they try to fight it.



[quote][b]-In the military, gays are liable to violence from other army members, and cause great uncomfortability among straight military men. Segregation of the armed forces would only cause (like in all segregation of schools), an inherent feeling of inferiority among the gay men. [/B][/QUOTE]

Subject to violence from other people.... how is that the gay person's fault again? I may have missed the point, but if someone has a problem with gay people, perhaps THEY need to be kicked out of the military. I only see that this would cause uncomfortable situations if they were being hit on.... a common myth that gay people hit on everyone... I, as a gay man, don't hit on people I know who are straight... and if I don't know your straight, I probably won't hit on you anyway without knowing first. Some gay men will hit on straight men no matter what.... but so will straight men hit on lesbians, whats the point? I don't think, because straight men are "uncomfortable" with a gay men, that gay men should have to pay the price. The heterosexual men need to get their act together. It's too bad they are weak minded enough that it bothers them so much.... i find it funny.... that any militray man doesn't feel bad if he kills some guy in Afganistan... but when it comes to seeing some gay guy on the street.... ewww ****** eww... please... get a life....

All in all, this is like living in the 60's.... it's a civil rights movement for gays... why shoul we be segregated for love.... I think maybe one day I would like to have a family.. get married... of course I'd have to go to Vermont to get married.... by the way things look, if we don't get some drastic changes then that won't happen.

Don't hate because you're straight.

[Sandy]

Am I smelling the stench of INTOLERANCE here:therock: ?

Well, it's good to have opinions, blueWizard, and you're totally entitled to them, but WHY DOES PEOPLE TALK ABOUT GAYS AS A DIFFERENT RACE????????

I tell you what has been prooved: NOBODYS totally straight -or gay! Were all from the between,and you know why: we're all humanbeings, born here by luck and coincidense, and were all equal. This discussion about who has what rights makes me so SAD :bawl: and FURIOUS :flaming: !!!!!

You might have heard that registrating gayrelationships became possible here in Finland just a few months ago, and that made me really reliefed coz that prooved that my nation isn't totally lost in the mists of discrimination and hatred towards strange things.

Being gay isn't a sin -how could it be when everyone of us has that side. It isn't unnatural -for the same reason. Anyhow it's almost forbidden because of the judging additude.

Being gay isn't a disease, it cannot spread fom the ones who are more "affected" than others. Being gay is...a part of each and every one of us.

(I want to highlight that when i say gay I mean the sexuality , not the culture coz there really is a [I]straight culture[/I] and a [I]gay culture[/I] ).

Now I'm confusing everybody -even myself- but please, correct me if I'm completely wrong coz this is one of the subjects that really gets me going(another one is religion, but that's not the issue here -luckily!)

[Bluewizard]

Well, I have been bashed, which I expected when I posted the topic so I'm cool with that, and I have been talked to level mindedly, which I appreciate.
I would like to take this moment to state that I have been hit on twice before by gay guys, though I try to realize that that doesn't mean all gay guys will hit on me and whatever. I realize that individuals are different within a group, and I do not consider myself homophobic, rascist, sexist, antisemetic, blah blah. I have one or two friends myself who are gay.
Thanks to all, I didn't feel comfortable sticking to a logic that my heart didn't agree with, and you helped. I'm convinced.

However one point I would like to make (and say so if you don't agree), is that in my experience guys are just a lot more horny than girls. Gay guys may be different, but I don't know. Therefor I would probably still feel more comfortable around a girl than around a gay guy. Plus theres a fact that if a girl started hitting on me, or whatever, I wouldn't mind (unless I am in a really bad mood), where is I can't feel that way towards a gay guy.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bluewizard [/i]
[B]However one point I would like to make (and say so if you don't agree), is that in my experience guys are just a lot more horny than girls. Gay guys may be different, but I don't know. Therefor I would probably still feel more comfortable around a girl than around a gay guy. Plus theres a fact that if a girl started hitting on me, or whatever, I wouldn't mind (unless I am in a really bad mood), where is I can't feel that way towards a gay guy. [/B][/QUOTE]

If you genuinly feel afraid that gay guys are gonna hit on you in the military, or anywhere for that matter, perhaps you should just not do that. Married men hit on women, women hit on married men, men hot on married women, straight men hit on lesbians, and the same thign happens that gay men will hit on straight men... it's not different for anything else.... just say "Sorry, I'm straight"... or something... they'll get the clue... unless their drunk... I do the same thing with girls... I've had girls hit on me before... that doesn't mean I'm afraid to be in their company.

Overall, I don't like the idea of gay being considered "abnormal".... everyone is considered straight till they find out someone is gay.... I don't think people should assume anything till they know... but thats not how society works unfortunantly. Oh well, I'm glad you were willing to listen and I'm glad you were able to share your thoughts and willing to think out before you judged... it shows strength on your part. :)

BTW, that "Don't hate because you're straight" comment wasn't aimed at you... it was aimed at anyone who hates... which you've prooven you don't...

[James]

[color=royalblue]Yeah, this is definitely an example of a person who puts their conscience first...which is a good thing.

I don't know how anyone with a conscience can bash a gay person...I actually saw a movie on showtime recently and it was about some kid who was gay (I didn't watch the entire movie tho), but it was so sad.

He was in the changing rooms at his school and all these guys came in and bashed the hell outta him...it makes me so angry when people can be so nasty and hateful...[/color]

[Zidargh]

Well.... In a way I am glad this is brought up.
I myself know someone who is extremely close to me who is a lesbian, and I feel honoured by so many respectful people.
But I'd like to express my views on a homosexual I knew a while ago, soon. So if you're interested PM me or something, I dont really want to talk about it at the moment. I apologise.

[BabyGirl]

[color=deeppink]Bluewizard- I apologize if my post sounded condescending...I wasn't discrediting you, I was discrediting the informant who told you of that information ;)[/color]

[Bluewizard]

Hmm, people got nice all of a sudden.....

Well, thank you all (again) and I appreciate it. I am not sure what you have to apologize for, BabyGirl, but thanks anyway.

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo]Well as for the whole growing up with gay parents thing. I can't say that's justified that the children will grow up to be gay. Being homosexual or bisexual is not neccessary a preference of the other or both sexes. You just orientate that way, it's who you are.

And gay people in the military. I would see that more as beneficial rather than a crutch. I mean, back in the ages in some country of which I can't remember, the ruler purposely had gay people as a high majority in his army. Cause he knew they would fight harder to impress him. Sure he was kind of exploiting their homosexuality, but he might have rewarded them soomehow, I dont know if he did or not. But you get the idea. If there are gay people in the military, more power to them. They are going to be twice the soldier of any straight man. Anybody who ridicules homosexuals shouldnt be in the military anyway, due to ignorance and immarturity. Or at least put them on the front line.

And Transtic was right in that gay guys won't hit on straight guys if they know they're straight. There's this one guy in my drama class that's homosexual, he's cool and all, but he never does anything. Well, until recently anyway, lol. But that's just because I told one of my friends who said she missed starting rumors to spread a rumor that I'm gay :p So obviously it got around to him. lol. I havn't been ridiculed for it yet though, which is kind of suprising...[/color]

[Ravenstorture]

And to steal a quote from somewhere I don't remember...

"What's all this about gays in the military? I believe gay people have the same right as anybody to kill innocent people!!"

(Haha, don't worry I'm not having a go at the military. Being a part of it and all....but that's a different story.)

[Kent]

well, im not sure where to began.
i am not for gays in the military.
i believe that it invades privacy. if your a girl would you want a dude watching you. liability for possible violence i would also support. i wouldnt hurt a gay person; but the guy who everyone knows, that just goes around on fridays looking for a fight, would.
piro munkie is thinking of political position.
at the base of the military machine there is the brotherhood,military, honor. sex is not involved. if a soldier has to worry about sex, (homosexual) it will comprimise the quality of the army, soldiers life and end product.(military success)
i at am an impass w/ adoption. i still openly oppose. i know that in psychology courses you are taught that all people have a homosexual thought. there for if believe that if your parents are supporting that life style and mentality, the child would be more likely to adopt the parental mentality. possibly bringing on a large decrease in world population based on decease and lack of natural growing from "normal" breeding.
in the macross movie this happend, it was full on war with alien races.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i][B]
A lot of the religious-right try to maintain that sexuality is chosen, so that they can inforce their zero-tolerance of alternative sexuality. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that's a pretty rash generalization. I do not think a lot of religious people have zero tolerance of gays.

It's like saying most Muslims are homocidal maniacs due to a few radicals who present a poor reputation for the rest.

There are plenty of jerk religious people who hate and despite gays, but there are far more who are tolerant.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]

I think that's a pretty rash generalization. I do not think a lot of religious people have zero tolerance of gays.

It's like saying most Muslims are homocidal maniacs due to a few radicals who present a poor reputation for the rest.

There are plenty of jerk religious people who hate and despite gays, but there are far more who are tolerant. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]Perhaps you didn't read what I said.

I said: [i]religious-right[/i].

Meaning, highly conservative religious groups. This is a well known fact. The religious-right is essentially the only major group in society which protests homosexuality -- this is evident wherever you go in the world.

Of course, you can be religious without being homophobic, but it's a well known fact that the right-wing religious groups are highly intolerant of homosexuality.[/color]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]
I said: [i]religious-right[/i].
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, I misinterpreted that.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]

Sorry, I misinterpreted that. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]No problem. :) [/color]

[Kent]

i dont think its ok to say right wing.
religion is not politics.
religions dont fall to the left and right.
its god and you

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]i dont think its ok to say right wing.
religion is not politics.
religions dont fall to the left and right.
its god and you [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]If only it were that way in reality.

Religion is politics. Before political systems were established, religion was the only way of maintaining law and order.

Also, religion itself doesn't fall to left and right -- it's the individual's interpretation that falls to left or right.

For the most part, it is the right-wing edge of religion which tends to be the most interolant in society. That doesn't mean the religion itself is bad, it just means that the right-wingers who practice and interpret it use it to further intolerance.[/color]

[Renee]

I don't get it. How can people say that they are against gays? I mean, there are a lot of people who happen to be gay. How can you say that they ALL hit on straight men, and that they ALL are unfit for the military or as parens? You cannot juge all by a few.
Another thing I don't get is why most males in my school are all for gay women, but God forbid you a gay man! Gays are treated like a different and lower class. All I know is I hope is that one day I hope to see you aren't jugged unfairly by who you love.

I'm done now.

[Sui Generis]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bluewizard [/i]
[B]I have a lot of extreme liberalist friends, and extreme conservative friends. This being my situation, I often find myself bombarded from two sides by political views and here is one that interests me. I am currently leaning against gays in the military/adoption. I want anyone that will to convince me otherwise, or help continue to support this veiw. Heres some reasons against gays in the military/adoption:
-If a gay couple adopts, the child is raised in a family without a mother, and mothers play an important role in a childs mind, and also the kid (if male), is then going to grow up to be gay and this deprives them of right of choice.
-In the military, gays are liable to violence from other army members, and cause great uncomfortability among straight military men. Segregation of the armed forces would only cause (like in all segregation of schools), an inherent feeling of inferiority among the gay men. [/B][/QUOTE]

[b]Gay Adoption[/b]: Personally there is no problem to it. They say that kids in their lives also need a father figure, yet thousands of kids grow up with only their mother and are. Fine....I grew up only with my mother till this year. People saying that two men can't raise a kid are just lying.

Now saying that a kid would not have a choice on his sex preference is just wrong. Every kid has a choice of their sex preference. Or else we would all be attracted to the opposite sex. Most likely the two gay men came from a mother and a father, what do you think he had to do, he had to decide, even tho his parents were gay. Just cuz they are gay doesn't mean their kid will be.

[b]Gays in the Military[/b]: Not letting a person join the army, because of sexual preference is wrong. Thats denying them honor. Many people including gays think that joining the military is great sign of strenth and honor, but when you take any chance of getting in away from them, you just strip all dignity from them. Also not letting them in points them out like a red flag to all the biggots in this world. Which would cause more problems.

Also think of this, if gays arn't allowed in the military if a man/woman doesn't want to join all they have to do is simply say they are gay. I mean whats gonna happen when we have a huge war say WW3 and we need people to fight, but all thats left in our country are gay men and woman, are we just gonna surrender to the enemy even though we have thousands to millions of capable ready bodies? I just don't think its right.

[b]Conclusion[/b]
So basically what I am saying in both sense is depriving a gay of any of these [i][b]RIGHTS[/i][/b] is just senseless and wrong. It seems our own constitution is under threat again and so is our national anthem...."Land of the [b]Free[/b].' Gays are no different from you or me, thats like saying people who have feet fetishes can't work at a shoe store, or people who like to eat strawberries can't work at a farm. Does that make sense?