The War on Anything That Moves

[Guest cloricus]

It's often for the simple reason that we share the same ideals as the United States. - James

Ha, I'd like to see that!

I know that, for example, Australia/New Zealand/USA have the ANZUS treaty...which basically says that an attack on one member's soil is considered an attack on all three. - James

Didn't NZ pull out of that treaty? I know that they really couldn't help if Australia was attacked but it's like saying. "If where invaded you have to help us, [B]BUT[/B] if you get invaded, you can go stuff yourselves!"

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]

Ha, I'd like to see that![/b][/quote]

[color=royalblue]What is the meaning of that? Are you saying that other countries don't have the same ideals as the United States?[/color][quote][b]

Didn't NZ pull out of that treaty? I know that they really couldn't help if Australia was attacked but it's like saying. "If where invaded you have to help us, [B]BUT[/B] if you get invaded, you can go stuff yourselves!" [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]I am not sure. It's possible.

During the 1990's, Australia sold a fleet of some 20 F-14 fighters to New Zealand...and NZ stored them within Australia (at one of our air bases)...and they paid us to maintain them.

However, in the year 2000, the NZ Government decided that it couldn't afford to continue maintaining the aircraft...and it didn't feel that it would ever need them.

So it [i]gave[/i] them back to Australia.

So certainly...if we were attacked, NZ probably couldn't do much in the way of hardware. It could offer troops, though.[/color]

[Kent]

i honestly believe anyone who can think this war is just a stunt, is the biggest idiot here.
i dont want anyone to get mad.
but, come on.

[Char!]

Who knows, the US is pretty whacko when it comes to government... For starters, a contradictory "democracy" which puts the losers of an election in office? C'mon, with stuff like that goin' on, [i]anything's[/i] possible...

[Guest cloricus]

[QUOTE][I]Originally posted by James [/I]
[B]

[color=royalblue]What is the meaning of that? Are you saying that other countries don't have the same ideals as the United States?[/color][/B][/QUOTE]

America is a capitalist country, they have no real care for the poorer in their society. They also have to death penalty and a dodgy in the most part law system. I would like to think Australia and England where better than that?


[QUOTE][B][color=royalblue]I am not sure. It's possible.

So certainly...if we were attacked, NZ probably couldn't do much in the way of hardware. It could offer troops, though.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]
I do think that they pulled out of the treaty. I will find out.


Can I also ask, in the syntax why is colour spelt color? eg [ color ]

[Roxie Faye]

I'm not gonna put the whole thing up here, go read it for yourself, but on the first page, DuoGod of Death, I would like to say that is ABSOLUTEY.WONDERFUL. I agree with you.

and, James, on an earlier post you said:
[B][COLOR=royalblue]That is why Americans are, in general, so very ignorant of the rest of the world. And that is why you have so many Americans believing that America is the victim of a jealous world -- when that is, for the most part, not the case.[/COLOR][/B]

I do agree that Americans, IN GENERAL, are ignorant. We don't know too much about the rest of the world at all, and it just bugs me so much! but the one thing i want to know, if America is NOT the victim of a jealous world, what is the case?
I'm not trying to be nasty, or say that in a sarcastic tone or anything, i'm just truly curios. and sorry if you didn't udnerstand that question. I'm in seventh grade and I have a curfew, and my mom wants me to get off the comp rite now. if you didn't understand my question, jst ask and i'll clarify it for you.

[Kent]

first,
americans know more than you think. unfortunatly, the minority of ignorant people are the ones that seek the attention of the media.
second,
i dont think its really, at the heart of the matter, about jealousy.
i believe it is the fact that the areas most talked about in these dicussions, are totalitarian goverments that have all been threatened by the "modern" govermental model that the u.s.a. has set up by using what we like to call capitalism, or free trade.
i will let you try and obsorb that, but i would like to hear what you all, yes, all, have to say.
im an american by the way if you cant tell.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by roxieortatiana [/i]
[B]

if America is NOT the victim of a jealous world, what is the case?
[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]Thinking that the world is jealous is about as arrogant as you can get; it only plays into the hands of those who say "America is so arrogant".

People who dislike America are usually people who have been affected by American policy in some way.

In the case of the Middle East...it's mostly the fact that there is so much propaganda there and no free press or free Government.

That is why the Middle East is so suspicious of the USA in general...whereas the rest of the world couldn't care less. Those countries that have free press and democracy are far less likely to take issue with the US...[/color]

[Kent]

james,
the above post is one of the few valid and intelligent things i see on this site when it comes to this having to do with the real world.
i am glad there are people out there who recoginize the screwy systems that the middle east call goverments.

[Jamvis]

Well, James always has a valid point, but one thing i dont understand is, why is it that everytime we get into a war we beat the crap out of them then use our own funds to help them back up (i.e.: Japan and Afgahnistan). There are red cross agencies in Afgahnistan (which some idiots blew up because of bad aim) and they are STILL trying to help the enemy. I am American, but, i feel that they "kiss up" a little too much. They dont seem to want any of the Middle East Nations turning on them (which i dont blae them for, not totally anyway) and they seem to be so afraid of them. America is an advanced nation with all sorts of weapons, so why cant we force them to back off? (Im only 12 so dont bite my head off for anything ive said, i just thought i say this) America is a great nation but, politically i think its unstable.

[Ravenstorture]

Has anyone ever noticed that pride comes before a fall? I mean, look at the ancient roman empire, after it's greatest moment it fell and now half of it is struggling to keep the title of "first world country". Same with Greece, one of the most advanced civilizations in the world - now, it's a hole. (And don't get me started on EGYPT...)
But anyway, I believe that America is at the peak of it's power now. You can only fit so many infuential nukes into a country, and if you ask me, in a few years time it may not be so very, very, very, very powerful and politically active within the world.

[Guest cloricus]

Just think, one nuke 100 megaton (most standard ones are 50 mt's so it would have to be custom) dropped at 4 k's above the centre of America. (Or over Washington dc if you want to break ppls sprits) The EMP would destroy ever electrical item that was turned on in America and surrounding areas. That is the way to destroy America. But that is a bad thing, because even though America are up them selves, they have the money, and recking 210 million peoples lives it not a nice thing to do. SO DON'T DO IT. I don't want to be some one giving ideas to crazy people, that has turned out bad in the past.

[Kent]

jamvis is (im assuming) younger than most here and he still has one of the most important points.
america helps far more people than nessacary and we're still never happy with the world condition.
further more i am amazed that anyone who can read these boards (meaning you have a computer) would think america is a bad country. (over powering super nation)
you all need to have your freedoms stipped just so you can realize what you really have.
if your still not happy with what i have said, oh say, you live in europe; you should be thanking americans. better an american super power than a german one.
and if you want all americans out of france, lets start with the graves.

[Guest cloricus]

All I have to say is "[B][I]TOLD[/I][/B]", but any way, most of the world isn't like France - there just weird. We did no such thing in Australia, the airlines helped as many people as they could to get back if they had lost people in 9 11. (And I even think they cut some airfares.) Has any one noticed that 911? CONSIPIRACY!!!!!! lol.

[9mm Avenger]

I have just a few things to say.

As a maple-syrup-sucking-fur-trapping-canoe-riding-igloo-living-living-in-Canadian, I have never liked Americans, Bush above all.

Why? A good reason is: Stop refering to us as "America Jr", "Canuck Land", or whatever you call us.

Also, your not as good as u think you are. People die everyday, more than they do in Canada from shooting, drugs, etc. Now, those things happen here, but we try to do something about them. You turn a blind-eye because owning guns is your public right. Fine. But don't sell them to people with a crminal record, thats just asking for trouble.

Bush, despite my loathings of him, I have to admit, he has handled 9/11 well. However, going to Afgan and blasting the s***t out of everything, inlcuding OUR forces who are there to help, dosen't help!

But whatever. Your war. If it was up to me, Canada woulden't help. I admit that 9/11 was horrible, but thats your problem. You only strike back when it's in YOUR intrest. World War II? Pearl Harbour? Thats when you entered the war. Never for the good of others.

[b]I don't want a big rant by some patriot here saying: "U Canadians belong to us! You suck!" or something like that. Canada is a free country, like yours. My opinion. I can express it.[/b]

[Roxie Faye]

[QUOTE][I]Originally posted by Jamvis[/I][B]
Well, James always has a valid point, but one thing i dont understand is, why is it that everytime we get into a war we beat the crap out of them then use our own funds to help them back up (i.e.: Japan and Afgahnistan). There are red cross agencies in Afgahnistan (which some idiots blew up because of bad aim) and they are STILL trying to help the enemy. I am American, but, i feel that they "kiss up" a little too much. They dont seem to want any of the Middle East Nations turning on them (which i dont blae them for, not totally anyway) and they seem to be so afraid of them. America is an advanced nation with all sorts of weapons, so why cant we force them to back off? (Im only 12 so dont bite my head off for anything ive said, i just thought i say this) America is a great nation but, politically i think its unstable. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think we reason why we help them after we defeat them, is so that a world war doesn't start again.

and here i go with a(probably an inaccurate) history lesson.
after world war one, the allied powers basically took everything from germany, leaving the nation very poor. Hitler took this opportuinity tro seize power. he used the Jews as a scape goat and blamed all the poverty on them. and then, world war two happened. after world war two, we(the allied powers) realized the cause of world war one(what i have just mentioned), and decided this couldn't hapen again. we took away the japanese military, but promised to protect them. we did pretty much the same thing to gremany, too.

edoes that help any thing? oh, and do note, there are LOTS of other reasons why WWII started, i'm just naming that one for the purpose of answering Jamvis' question.

[Kent]

i must say that i personally have lost great faith in my alleged friend and neighbors to the north. i can understand being mad about your troops; i would be also.
as for the words you used to decribe yourself. well thats just funny cause i dont really ever think ive heard anything like that, none the less said it. (although i love the movie canadian bacon, "i dont know what your talking aboot eh! or "lets stay in and order some canadian food")
other wise i dont really joke on canada, ive even visited.
self interest, well more than pearl habour i think we got in because after seeing that the war came to us, we realized that if we didnt fight the nazis in europe it would be in the north american continent.
but most important here is the fact, i repeat, FACT, that no federal criminal can purchase a gun legally in the u.s., so get your facts straight.
also in ww2, believe it or not but we ( the u.s.) made a deal to pay off the german debt to the rest of europe (kind of a loan) because the french were just trying to work a grudge from the franco-prussian war.
germany almost didnt end up as nazis until the u.s. economy crumbled in the great depression and the german economy came down with us allowing hitler to rise to power.
and if you drop your grudge, you just might see that america does help people out some.
ya know, some times i get the impression that people here mis-interpet me. i know america isnt perfect and we've done lousy stuff like everyone else; but we do try to help. we are human too.

[liamc2]

On the subject of nuclear weapons, or 'nukes' as you so fondly called them, have you noticed that many countries are handing them over to the UN?

For instance, Russia had handed over a consignment of nuclear weapons to America not long ago.

Many people would be saying how great it is that people are finally walking towards peace.

Actually, its probably because they have realised how useless Nuclear weapons are, unless you are Suicidal/Genocidal etc.

Moving on to my point, the UN have sent out researchers to countries to collect the nuclear weapons, review laborotories and make sure nothing is left to create more.
Almost every country accepted to this routine check, except for America. .something I found quite interesting.

Now this was probably originally overlooked because someone would have said "We don't want you investigating because we're developing something top secret"

Well thats all very well and good because it makes you think that its for the "War on Terror," but it also niggles at my suspicious part of my brain.

Now lets review the points, if you wanted to win a war, but you couldn't use nuclear weapons because:

A: you already did that to Japan in WWII

B: The terrorists will declare nuclear war on you

What would you do?

Simple, develop a new weapon that isn't restricted by the UN treaty.

A biological bomb that has a short term half life, covers a vast area, gaseous so your troops could use breathing gear and wouldn't need to be evacuated.

I mean, America would have the tech after the investigation of Iraq's biological weapons. .also, small amounts of biological weaponry went missing on their stop over in American base camps on their way to the UN to be dismantled

[Guest cloricus]

America has been doing that since WW11. Where did you think antrax came from. They made it and they have made other more deadly things as well. And are rummored to of created AIDs when testing theys biol things on monkeys.

[D. Dark]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]America has been doing that since WW11. Where did you think antrax came from. They made it and they have made other more deadly things as well. And are rummored to of created AIDs when testing theys biol things on monkeys. [/B][/QUOTE]

I can't say that those rumours are true, but it wouldn't surprise me. Diseases can be easily made these days with biological engineering, and with humans constantly testing products and things on animals, diseases are prone to develop.

America, I believe, interferes far too much and in too big a way in foreign affairs for its own good, so that, as James said, they are disliked, and also are inadvertently relied upon for help, sometimes when it is needed, and sometimes when it is not. Though there is nothing wrong with diplomacy, controlling diplomacy to America's gains (There is always some beneath the surface) is what angers people. In Vietnam, they promised to help the South Vietnamese if ever they were attacked by the Vietcong. When they were, no help was given.

It is the opposite for other situations. In Chile and Greece, they did not like the regimes in place for being socialist or along Communist lines. They helped replace them with not only non-communist governments, for their own gains to stop Communism, but they put in oppressive governments, which the people did not like. An example of America over true help for the country in need.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jamvis [/i]
[B]Well, James always has a valid point, but one thing i dont understand is, why is it that everytime we get into a war we beat the crap out of them then use our own funds to help them back up (i.e.: Japan and Afgahnistan). [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]Because you're forgetting something very important here.

In the case of Afghanistan, the USA and its allies were fighting against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Not the Afghan people.

It's wrong to say "war against Afghanistan", because it wasn't a war against Afghanistan. It was a war against the oppressive leadership of that nation.

The USA can't go in and bomb the place and then not pick up the pices -- it has an [i]obligation[/i] to help the civilians there, once it has attacked the Taliban.

Without such intervention, an atmosphere would arise where another Taliban-style government could take power.

In the case of Japan, for a few years after WWII, the USA occupied Japan and controlled it. When the country was back on its feet and stripped of its weaponry, the USA handed power back to Japanese leaders.

And now, look at Japan. It's a pacifist country...it's democratic (for the most part) and it's a hell of a lot more free than the Middle East.

Therefore, Japan is a great example of what can happen in Afghanistan; the International community can help to rebuild people's lives...build infrastructure and education, so that there is no environment for terrorists.

You must remember that Afghanistan was a haven for terrorists because it had no law and order...and very little education.

When people are ignorant and starving, terrorism can become attractive because it feeds on the negative aspects of people's situations. It becomes much easier for people like bin Laden to use propaganda to "educate" people...

But when people have education and they are able to become financially independent, you'll find that they won't succumb to terrorism nearly as easily...simply because they know better. And they don't become tempted to what terrorism offers.

So it should be our aim to make Afghanistan stable...to provide it with law and order...police forces and Government...schools and hospitals...clean water and food...and then, finally, people will be able to live their lives more happily and put terrorism away for good.[/color]

[Kent]

i would like to say that james stated an opinion that would be an excellent one to leave on.
i also propose that on the same note,
i have long wondered what these boards would look like if a thread was on the palestinian situation.
we could continue in this thread with that subject; or we could start something new, or flat out leave it alone.
just wondered what everyone thought?

[Pressure]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][/b][/color]

[color=royalblue]Australia has the highest quality living conditions on Earth.
[color] [/B][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=purple]:rolleyes: Minus that "hole in the ozone" thing..

Okay.. bare with me bc I only read the first page, you guys have no idea how long your posts are.. back to back.. so trying to stay on topic..

I'll start by saying that I have an uncharted disliking for the primate-clone that we Americans call our President. This may be bc I'm hardheaded, it may be bc I'm a Democrat, it also may be bc I think George Bush has an IQ of 2. Whatever the reason is, I don't like George Bush and I don't like the way he is handling his Presidency. As James and many others stated before, he focuses way too much on Homeland Security. He was a fraud from the begininng, stating he would lower taxes for the rich 1% of America. The man is useless. Besides, it really doesn't matter, Chaney is running the country anyways. If you want to dislike someone, pick him.

cloricus, your statement was very offensive and rude. That is all I have to say.

I can understand where other countries may see America as having a "Holier-than-thou" attitude most of the time, and they are absolutely correct. America thinks it is so wonderful that it can't see past it's own ego. Personally, I see America as a selfish child. And an un-truthful one at that. Until I was 12 years old, I thought America had won every war it had ever been in.

James is right, the only reason that the Taliban wasn't wiped out years ago was bc we were afraid of loosing our oil supply.

While I feel all of these things, I also feel that America is one of the best places on Earth. Note I didn't say THE best. America has it's problems, but please don't act like it is the one. Not to generalize, but it seems that a lot of the griping is coming from Australians. I'm not pushing the pin on Australia and saying only Australian's dislike America, but Australia isn't perfect either. Neither is anywhere else on this planet.

Personally, I don't see a point to all of this, it can only result in members pointing out the flaws in America, and Americans getting angry about it. [/COLOR]

[Roxie Faye]

[QUOTE][I]Originally posted by cloricus[/I][B]
America has been doing that since WW11. Where did you think antrax came from. They made it and they have made other more deadly things as well. And are rummored to of created AIDs when testing theys biol things on monkeys.[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not sure about the monkey thing, but I think you lost me with the Anthrax. Anthrax was originally a disease of cows and Louis Pasteur discovered a Vaccine it, i dunno when, but i am ASSUMING a while back. Do you mean the anthrax in people was started during WWII? I think you lost me.

[Jamvis]

Okay James, I see what you're saying however... America is like that as well but we have Soooo many bad things still. you have this perfect world in mind but as long as people think for themselves there will always be alot of yang my friend. things that will forever haunt us (i just wanted to say that)