The War on Anything That Moves

[Red]

[B]I hate to butt in late with my own viewpoint, but I have been away recently.

I doubt highly that America would have intervened in Afghanistan if the World Trade Centre hadn't been attacked.
The same applies to this "war on terrorism". I view this as an excuse to start unnecessary fighting with countries that are currently posing no real threat to America.

Within Northern Ireland lies the IRA- A rather formidable terrorist group who have bombed buildings and killed a lot of people over the years, yet America are not going to bomb Northern Ireland to pieces because a few hundred (maybe thousand) terrorists live there.

I can agree that George Bush wanted to strike back at the Taliban, as any country's leader/s probably would have wanted to do. But he has taken this all too far and blown it out of proportion, increasing the US military funds by billions of dollars just to "fight global terrorism".[/B]

[Kent]

hey,
dont start with the IRA, they have honored a seise fire (sp?)
for the last 8 years, none the less, most of their targets were political or military.
the al queda that trained, by the hundreds, in afghanistan were just plan killers.
only the strike on the pentagon was against a goverment institution, the wtc, thats just innocents.
and unfortunatly, radical hardline muslims are not going to stop if we do and their not going to honor any kind of cease fire.

[Ravenstorture]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DBZChikaGhan [/i]
[B]

[color=purple]I think that's overdoing it. There isn't a coutnry on this Earth that deserves to have thousands of innocents slaughtered. The ones who deserve punishment, if this is your view, should be the political leaders that put America in these situations.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]


Hehehe, and if there is one country that needs to learn that lesson it's America. Hear hear, Quatre's gurl.

[Jesus Chicken]

well we should probably and will all burn in hell .
so it doesnt matter if some get there before others. we shall all be there...:flaming:

[Pressure]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ravenstorture [/i]
[B]


Hehehe, and if there is one country that needs to learn that lesson it's America. Hear hear, Quatre's gurl. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=purple]Maybe so Raven, but would you like it if thousands were wiped out where you are? Just bc your political leaders f*cked up?[/color]

[D. Dark]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DBZChikaGhan [/i]
[B]

[color=purple]Maybe so Raven, but would you like it if thousands were wiped out where you are? Just bc your political leaders f*cked up?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe that this would go for Afghanistan [I]and[/I] America. Remember, America has probably killed more civilians in the world than Afghanistan, secretly and in open theatres of war. I would say that it goes that the WHOLE political system is f*cked up, but that's over-exaggerting slightly...

[Red]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]hey,
dont start with the IRA, they have honored a seise fire (sp?)
for the last 8 years, none the less, most of their targets were political or military.
the al queda that trained, by the hundreds, in afghanistan were just plan killers.
only the strike on the pentagon was against a goverment institution, the wtc, thats just innocents.
and unfortunatly, radical hardline muslims are not going to stop if we do and their not going to honor any kind of cease fire. [/B][/QUOTE]

[B]I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree with your viewpoint.

A couple of years ago, the IRA made a major bombing of a large business tower in London, killing (I can't remember the exact number) maybe hundreds of [i]innocent[/i] people. Yes, they did adhere to the cease fire for a while, but some other splinter groups of the IRA still carried out bombings along with the IRA themselves. The IRA agreed to a cease fire because they were trying to solve the problem without violence.

Al-Qaeda is no different to the IRA, they just work in a different way and have committed different kinds of terrorist attacks, mainly targeted at America.

The IRA have killed as many, if not more people than the Al-Qaeda terrorist group, and I doubt many people would know who the Al-Qaeda or Osama Bin Laden were if the World Trade Centre attacks did not occur[/B]

[Ravenstorture]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DBZChikaGhan [/i]
[B]

[color=purple]Maybe so Raven, but would you like it if thousands were wiped out where you are? Just bc your political leaders f*cked up?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]


Surprisingly enough, I would like that quite alot.
The political leaders would probably dislike it, however, and I see that as a good thing.

[Megabakin]

I know a way to end all of the probs. Destroy the world!! Blow the whole goddamn thing up. That way nobody can complain, and all the wars will be solved! Every country is ****ed up, so lets eliminate them!!!

[Roxie Faye]

[QUOTE][I]Originally posted by Ravenstorture[/I][B]
Surprisingly enough, I would like that quite alot.
The political leaders would probably dislike it, however, and I see that as a good thing.[/B][/QUOTE]

Let me say this: YOU HAVE NO HEART WHATSOEVER!!!!! You don't care about INOCENT PEOPLE AT ALL??????? You are TRULY TRULY cruel, you are WORSE than the Taliban WORSE than Al-Queda, WORSE the the DEVIL HIMSELF, you know that? you TRULY, TRULY, TRULY, have no heart.
Did you ever stop and think about all those INNOCENT, COMPLETELY INNOCENT people inside the World Trade Center? DID YOU EVER THINK ABOUT THAT? Did you ever think about the little boy who's dreams of becoming a Major league baseball play were shattered when he died that day? did you ever think about that sweet 16 year old, who's search for true love was torns up because she died? Did you ever think about the woman who's hopes of earning a little more income to support her family were ripped into shreds because she died? Did you EVER stop and think about any of that? ANY OF THAT AT ALL??

I suppose not. Just because you hate the government doesn't mean you have to hate the people of that country? Please, go blame the government, not those innocent people who's dreams, searches, and hopes were gone because they died. Please, don't. I truly hope that some part of this will get into your head. God bless you.

[Ravenstorture]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by roxieortatiana [/i]
[B]
Let me say this: YOU HAVE NO HEART WHATSOEVER!!!!! You don't care about INOCENT PEOPLE AT ALL??????? You are TRULY TRULY cruel, you are WORSE than the Taliban WORSE than Al-Queda, WORSE the the DEVIL HIMSELF, you know that? you TRULY, TRULY, TRULY, have no heart.
Did you ever stop and think about all those INNOCENT, COMPLETELY INNOCENT people inside the World Trade Center? DID YOU EVER THINK ABOUT THAT? Did you ever think about the little boy who's dreams of becoming a Major league baseball play were shattered when he died that day? did you ever think about that sweet 16 year old, who's search for true love was torns up because she died? Did you ever think about the woman who's hopes of earning a little more income to support her family were ripped into shreds because she died? Did you EVER stop and think about any of that? ANY OF THAT AT ALL??[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred]Did the us army corps stop and think of that before they went and slaughtered all the INNOCENT victims in the middle east, who also had hopes and dreams? How many people died in 9/11? Triple it. That is the number of innocent people that have been killed in the "War Against Terrorism." Their dreams were probably different to those of the americans, though - they would have been wishing for clean water, rain, political stability, or at least safty. Perhaps some of them may have been wishing to be major league baseball players, or for true love, or for enough income to support their families, but then again they could be wishing that their families hadn't been torn up by a US machine gun because they "got in the way."[/color]

[QUOTE][B]I suppose not. Just because you hate the government doesn't mean you have to hate the people of that country? Please, go blame the government, not those innocent people who's dreams, searches, and hopes were gone because they died. Please, don't. I truly hope that some part of this will get into your head. God bless you. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred]The government are people also. They are just like you, and just like me.
Don't bless me, please. There are people out there who need your blessing more than I do.[/color]

[The Harlequin]

[quote]
[I]Originally posted by Ravenstorture[/I]
Did the us army corps stop and think of that before they went and slaughtered all the INNOCENT victims in the middle east, who also had hopes and dreams? How many people died in 9/11? Triple it. That is the number of innocent people that have been killed in the "War Against Terrorism." Their dreams were probably different to those of the americans, though - they would have been wishing for clean water, rain, political stability, or at least safty. Perhaps some of them may have been wishing to be major league baseball players, or for true love, or for enough income to support their families, but then again they could be wishing that their families hadn't been torn up by a US machine gun because they "got in the way."
[/quote]

And how many of these unfortunates fully condoned the rule of the corrupt power they were under the control of? Make no mistake, I know that the major percentage of people disliked the Taliban rule, but most of those who disliked it where out of the country, or attempting to leave it. It was those who wished Taliban rule to continue that stayed. And as for those who disliked it, that is as much a crime, for not doing something about it. Do you think that if there had been pleas for foreign aid against the Taliban, that it would have been refused by America, or anwhere else? Especially in light of the Taliban's Al-Queda connections, and indeed, their endorsement of the terrorist activites they commited. Personally, I believe both America and the Taliban got what was coming to them, and since it's their own fault, I have no pity for either of them. How bad does that make me?

[Ravenstorture]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B]

And how many of these unfortunates fully condoned the rule of the corrupt power they were under the control of? Make no mistake, I know that the major percentage of people disliked the Taliban rule, but most of those who disliked it where out of the country, or attempting to leave it. It was those who wished Taliban rule to continue that stayed.[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred]Not so. It is more difficult to leave a middle eastern country in political instability than it was to enter the USA with bombs strapped all over you on the fifteenth of September, 2001. When a country of the south finds itself under the eye of the world, or if it finds itself somewhat out of other country's favour, it practices the act of "populus lockdown". Not many people know of it, but it happened to Greece when I was living in it and there was conflict over the island of Cyprus and when Cezkoslovakia split up.
During the communist revolution in the 1840's, the eastern border was completely sealed up. People who attempted to leave Nigeria three years ago were shot on site.
Most of the country would have left Afghanistan if they had the choice, but do you think that a politic party that outlawed music would let everyone just leave when they got control? It is nearly impossible to leave middle eastern countries as it is. Egyptians cannot get visas unless they have a written invitation from someone in another country. And even then the price is incredibly expensive, and you have to be in a trained profession.
People take their freedom for granted in Northcountries, that is why there was so mcuh controversy and hatred being thrown around over Axis of Evil states. [/color]

[The Harlequin]

Yes, I am aware of the usual military practice of sealing borders. But consider the terrain we are talking about here. We have had troops scouring the place for however long now, and they are still turning up people. Do you really think a smaller force could possibly police the entire border, as well as keep control of the cities that might happen to object to a government that outlaws music. And you do not need a VISA, if you are a refugee. Anybody leaving the country like that is, technically, a refugee. And what does it matter about VISA's in Egypt anyway? Nationaly policy, when the country is independant, is not dictated by foreign nations, aside from in Australia...

[Guest cloricus]

Both views are right. At the moment the situation in America and the Middle East is not exemplary. You should also note that you might be missing some information that the American government has not released. So really their can be no right or wrong at the moment, maybe when the American government decides that people want or need to know, or it doesn?t loss them an election they may tell the full story.

[The Harlequin]

It doesn't matter whether they tell the full story or not. What matters is that they're still going to continue as they are. They've drawn the Western World too deeply into their War Against Terror, to halt it all now. Nothing will ever change, nothing ever does.

[Ravenstorture]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B]Yes, I am aware of the usual military practice of sealing borders. But consider the terrain we are talking about here. We have had troops scouring the place for however long now, and they are still turning up people. Do you really think a smaller force could possibly police the entire border, as well as keep control of the cities that might happen to object to a government that outlaws music. And you do not need a VISA, if you are a refugee. Anybody leaving the country like that is, technically, a refugee. And what does it matter about VISA's in Egypt anyway? National policy, when the country is independant, is not dictated by foreign nations, aside from in Australia... [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred]Sealing the borders is not a military practice, it is a govermental measure of security taken to ensure that the country simply does not "run away".
I meant VISA as in 'ticket to leave the country'. Without it, you cannot leave, and if you do manage it you are incarcerated. Refugees are shot, remember. The people who made it to their destinations were incredibly lucky. [/color]

[The Harlequin]

Refugees shot? I somehow think not. Not with current international laws. Nobody gets away with that. If you are a refugee, you can leave the country no matter what. If they had protested and left earlier, they would not have had to rely on luck.

[Ravenstorture]

[color=darkred]Well, I am only going off what I have been told and my own experience. Sorry if it doesn't conform with your views.[/color]

[Jesus Chicken]

Regardless of my very mimted knowledge.. I must hear my point of view heard out.
I have to agree with Raven. I think that the people are very lucky to have made it this far.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B] Nationaly policy, when the country is independant, is not dictated by foreign nations, aside from in Australia... [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=coral]I don't know what you mean by that specifically (your post was kind of difficult to decipher at certain points), but Australia's foreign policy is certainly not dictated by any other nation.

[/color]

[The Harlequin]

Anything in particular you want me to clarify? That last line was a cynical joke about some of our Prime Minister's recent actions, such as how he handled the Dali Lama's visist...

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B]Anything in particular you want me to clarify? That last line was a cynical joke about some of our Prime Minister's recent actions, such as how he handled the Dali Lama's visist... [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=coral]Erm, no...I don't want you rewriting most of the post. Heheh.

But yes...I agree with you regarding the Dalai Lama. Having said that, it's not exactly a major piece of "forgein policy"...and there were infact Government ministers who met with the Lama.

So yeah, maybe I took that last line too literally, but it can be very difficult to detect sarcasm on the Internet. ;)[/color]

[The Harlequin]

Ah. Yes, the slander is very much appreciated. The Dalai Lama's visist itself is not the point, more the fact that John Howard immediately ran over to China to placate their government.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B]The Dalai Lama's visist itself is not the point, more the fact that John Howard immediately ran over to China to placate their government. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=coral]Of course.

Had he visited with the Llama, he would have lost face with China...and thus, the lucrative resources deal between Australia and China would have been scrapped once and for all.[/color]