Euthinasia

[The Harlequin]

[quote]
[I]Originally posted by James[/I]
Anyway...I don't even know how we got sidetracked there...euthanasia really isn't the same as the general suicide that you see most of the time.[/quote]

I asked if you would consider mental illness incurable. If someone is depressed, and it cannot be cured, do you think other people really have a right to decide that "No, that person doesn't want to die, we won't let them, they're just crazy". When it comes to mental illness, most people are uninformed bigots.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B]

I asked if you would consider mental illness incurable. If someone is depressed, and it cannot be cured, do you think other people really have a right to decide that "No, that person doesn't want to die, we won't let them, they're just crazy". When it comes to mental illness, most people are uninformed bigots. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=coral]I never said that, though. So you're preaching to the choir when it comes to this point. :)

And yes I agree, when it comes to mental illness, most people [i]are[/i] pretty uninformed. :)[/color]

[The Harlequin]

I know you never said that, I was asking if you were really so hidebound on it only being applied to those with an incurable illness.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B]I know you never said that, I was asking if you were really so hidebound on it only being applied to those with an incurable illness. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=coral]I see.

I don't think I'd support it in the case of depression. Why? Because when you are in a depressed state, you're much more likely to authorize your own euthanasia.

Depression as a mental illness can be cured in some cases (and treated in most cases).

You have to remember that euthanasia is a very serious issue. If you are depressed or if you are facing any other (even slight) mental instability, then you are perhaps not in the absolute best position to judge whether or not you're ready for something like that.

But if you are 100% sound of mind...yet are in tremendous physical pain due to an incurable physical illness...then certainly, that's a different story.[/color]

[Anna]

I think a few people here might be intermixing euthanasia with plain suicide or assisted suicide. While euthanasia [i]is[/i] a form of assisted suicide, it's definately more of a medical issue. The term "euthanasia" is used when there is a decision of whether or not to "pull the plug", or take someone off of life support. To end someone else's life under any other circumstances would just be blatant murder.

[i]That[/i] is what the topic is about. The issue of depression being an excuse to kill or assist in killing someone is wrong. I'm tired of seeing people here whine because of the pain. Do you honestly think that you're the only ones? Do you really think that no one else could possibly understand you, because what- you have it too hard and no one else can comprehend?

Let me tell you something: there is an entire earth filled with billions of people, each with their own separate and individual lives. Almost all of them will at point come to a depressed state- a void. They feel there's no purpose, they can't stand how they live, they can't escape what haunts them. When you are surrounded in darkness you can't see beyond what's in front of you. But for all anyone knows, a person could have a long, prosperous life ahead if they could only endure a while longer and overcome a pothole they're stuck in at the moment. It's possible, and also realistic.

Mental illness is serious, but there's not enough merrit to throw in the hat. Treatment is available. The problem is those have a problem don't care enough to let the treatment work. I've seen it, and I know what I'm talking about. The only people with a real mental illness that 'recover' or at least live their lives contently are the ones who made the decision that they weren't going to back down. They want to give living another chance. The key word is "want", not "can't". And everyone can.

[The Harlequin]

Say we take it off depression. and put it on broader front. Neurosis, shizophrenia, bipola, etc? What then? What about chronic conditions? Do you think those people are just whiners? People who wouldn't know what's best for them? Whether it is that, or just depression, people always the right to make their own decisions. In that case, it's not about not letting them kill themselves, which they probably will if it is that bad anyway, it is about letting them die with grace. It's about preventing further pain. Trying to commit suicide and failing puts you in a worse state than you originally were. Which adds to the problem. Saying that people with mental problems are in no position to decide for themselves what is right or wrong for them is pure egotism.

[Jesus Chicken]

Thats very true. Knowing you Harlequin, that point has truly been proved more valid than many things said on this topic. We use only half of our brains, and often the people with what we call
"mental problems" live in what we don't use. They just provide with another point of view, weather you think its right or not.

[Ravenstorture]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B]Say we take it off depression. and put it on broader front. Neurosis, shizophrenia, bipola, etc? What then? What about chronic conditions? Do you think those people are just whiners? People who wouldn't know what's best for them? Whether it is that, or just depression, people always the right to make their own decisions. In that case, it's not about not letting them kill themselves, which they probably will if it is that bad anyway, it is about letting them die with grace. It's about preventing further pain. Trying to commit suicide and failing puts you in a worse state than you originally were. Which adds to the problem. Saying that people with mental problems are in no position to decide for themselves what is right or wrong for them is pure egotism. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred]Why are you linking psychotic disorders with euthanasia? Psychosis is fun!! You of all people should agree with me on that one.;)
And now to live up to my contradicting nature and link euthanasia to mental illness like nobody has ever done before, mwahahaha... Euthanasia has never been considered with mental illness, because the paradigm states that mental illness is painless. Mental pain, in other words, does not exist. So that is why if someone with a mental illness wishes for the unbearable REAL pain to subside, they go for suicide and not euthanasia, because they would be laughed out of court, so to speak. And when a mentally ill person opts for suicide, they label them "depressed" and stick them in a different ward. Nobody believes us when we say it hurts, and in my opinion (based on experience, james & cloricus ;)) mental pain can be quite alot worse than physical pain. And anyway, is not pain of any kind mentally oriented? [/color]

[The Harlequin]

Thank you for summing up what I have been trying to say. I do agree with you, I was putting things on a more general basis.

On topic... Pain is not neccessarily mentally orientated. Physical pain is a signal something is being damaged. Mental pain is a sign something is wrong, not neccessarily that something is being damaged. At least, that's the definitations I was always given.

[The Unholy Newt]

I would like to throw something different into this discussion.
One thing,
Euthanasia does not actually mean doctor assisted suicide, it comes from two greek words (or latin, one of the two) with euth meaning good and anasia meaning death. So by definition everyone has the right to a good death so in those terms i support it. But in the common perception of that term I think, yep if they want to die it is their own choice, however they should not drag someone else into it, such as a doctor, endangering their reputation, their freedom (getting thrown in jail) and in the theological terms, their soul.
So if they want to end their own life, good for them

[The Harlequin]

Except for one thing. Doctors are able to administer compounds which kill painlessly. Many people when they kill themselves die a slow painful death. A very undignified death.

[Ravenstorture]

[color=darkred]And that brings in the whole concetp of family, such as the woman with cancer who wants her two sisters to be with her when she dies but if she does not get the rights to euthanasia and she kills herself, her sisters will go up for manslaughter.
(And with the incredible suffering endured to seek out euthanasia, my love, dignity would be the last thing on one's mind.....)[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

I did point that out in an earlier post but no one likes my opinion so I will just say this.
I really think it should be aloud, it saves a family allot of trouble and pain. People who are not suicidal wish for dignity, but people who are depressed and extremely suicidal have no care for it. Their families do thought. Even if it was some system where your family never had to know at least they wouldn't have to move the body from under a bridge or a train track and there would still be some of there loved one left to buried.

[Anna]

People with severe mental disorders like schitzophrenia have treatment available, and it does work. They can lead average lives and be self-sufficient.

People who are actually in mental institutions because of their condition aren't considered for euthanasia as often because their situations aren't hanging in the balance between life and death. No one said they're peachy-keen, but they are carrying on living, whether it is a desirable state of living or not.

You all keep forgetting the one very important, VERY REAL and unavoidable factor in all of this: the government.

You cannot ignore how the government would play in all of this. Death is serious, no matter how it's brought about. The latin root words of Euthanasia don't matter. In the law, euthanasia is 'mercy killing' when the decision is made [i]for[/i] the patient in question of whether or not they'll be taken off of life support because they are far past the point of recovery and are just living through a machine. THAT is all euthanasia is. Anything else is assisted suicide/manslaughter and anyone caught in these actions would be brought before a federal court and prosecuted. That's the way it is.

Say that someone altered the system, 'lightening up' the issue of euthanasia. It would be an option available to more cases, not just for those who have been kept on a machine for five years. Criteria for the doctors would be broader, more applicable.

Can you even fathom the mass murder that would take place over the years?

Do you know how expensive it is to run hospitals, mental institutions- the funds they have to take, the operations, the equipment, the medicines, the technology?

I can tell you what would happen; all the doctors and the high-ups would see it as opportunity to 'cut the corners'. Little by little they could eliminate those who are taking up more money than they would like. Pretty soon the corruption would spread in the underground and patients' diagnosis would be told worse than what they really are. A doctor could tell a family their mother won't ever recover from her breast cancer, and that her life would be only pain. Oh, but that could be stopped. She could be saved from years of torment because now the law allows euthanasia to cancer patients. Her condition isn't really fatal though, but the doctors aren't going to tell. It'll be less money spent on therapy, and their connections with insurance companies would keep booming because it's less money being taken out of their plans.

And patients in mental institutions.......
Do you have any idea how much money the government puts into them? If euthanasia could be more accessible to the 'powers that be' who would decide who lives and dies, hardly anyone would be in there for long. And it's not just the severely ill that would be taken out, after a while it could be anyone that's taking up too much of their money, including those who would have a chance at recovery or at least living a decent life.

Point is, you can't just throw around death. Life was never signed with a guarentee of happiness, but that doesn't mean you terminate it because you got one of the harder bargains. This point would lead to the issue of suicide, once again. It is NOT euthanasia, and euthanasia is what is in debate here.

[The Harlequin]

You really think doctors would play up a patient's health? When those doctors get paid more, when the patients are alive? Not to mention the increased government funding? If there were no patients, there would be no reason for the governments to fund the hospitals, putting the doctors out of work. How stupid do you think they are? Besides, the issue is that people get to decide for themselves, not the doctors. No one really cares whether the doctor thinks it is right or wrong. It is the patient that is important. The patient's decision is what matters. It doesn't matter if it is a mental or physical case. The doctor's opinion is irrelevant.

As for schitzophrenia treatment, no, it does not always work. It didn't work for me, I got over it myself nearly a year after the treatment finished. Drugs, councilling, I got the works. But it didn't help.

When you say that they aren't on the balance of life and death, you're saying that they should endure all the pain they feel, and live with it as long as they can, simply because you think that they shouldn't be allowed to make their own decisions. That kind of bigotry is exactly what has prevented the end of suffering to so many people.

[Ravenstorture]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anna [/i]
[B]People with severe mental disorders like schitzophrenia have treatment available, and it does work. They can lead average lives and be self-sufficient. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred] I am sorry, but I will have to disagree with you there. A doctor with schitzophrenia may be able to help you, but doctors dislike patients to an acute degree, and the percentage of doctors with psychotic disorders in western culture is shockingly low. However, an interesting point, psychiatrists have the highest suicide rate of all professions! I wonder why that might be?[/color]

[QUOTE][B]People who are actually in mental institutions because of their condition aren't considered for euthanasia as often because their situations aren't hanging in the balance between life and death. No one said they're peachy-keen, but they are carrying on living, whether it is a desirable state of living or not.
...
And patients in mental institutions.......
Do you have any idea how much money the government puts into them? If euthanasia could be more accessible to the 'powers that be' who would decide who lives and dies, hardly anyone would be in there for long. And it's not just the severely ill that would be taken out, after a while it could be anyone that's taking up too much of their money, including those who would have a chance at recovery or at least living a decent life.[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred] Doctors care about their patients because they are paid to, as I am sure you will agree. That is probably why you say they will not hesitate to sacrifice them to lower costs etc. But if they would use euthanasia against patients in the psych branch, don't you think they would not care very much in the way of a cure for schitzophrenia, etc? Well, as a victim of the medical prefession, I can safely say that they DON'T. People in this country are paid to be sick. In Chia, however, the system is the other way around. The families pay the doctors when they are well, when they fall ill the payment stops. This way the doctors have an incentive to keep the populus well, not sick. As this is not the case in Australia, we have a much higher rate of perscriptions and so forth.[/color]

[QUOTE][B]Point is, you can't just throw around death. Life was never signed with a guarentee of happiness, but that doesn't mean you terminate it because you got one of the harder bargains. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred]
I am sure that the medical profession on government would be well aware of that if euthanasia was legalised. [/color]

[Guest cloricus]

Both of you aren't even six-teen years old yet so you really can't make ethical judgements about what you or some one else would do at that age or with a complex disease.
I can see this topic going around and around in curricles.
Make your main point or opinion and leave it at that, or other wise you are just wasting space.

[James]

[color=coral]This topic is indeed going around in circles...

If euthanasia were legalized, I'm sure we all understand that there are strong ethical boundaries that would need to be drawn.

It must also be understood that euthanasia is [i]not[/i] the practice of someone else deciding to "cut off life support" for a terminally ill patient.

Euthanasia is a practice whereby a patient (with full mental "clarity"), who is suffering from a terminal and painfull physical illness, can choose to have their palliative care removed (thus allowing them to die).

I think a lot of people are agreeing or disagreeing without fully understanding what the subject is about.

We're not talking about mass suicides or doctors being able to choose who dies and who doesn't...that's not what it's about. We're talking about in incredibly [i]small[/i] number of people in the community who would wish to end any sort of palliative care, if they are suffering from terminal physical illness.

Anyway...I think everyone has just about provided their points of view on the subject...[/color]

[Anna]

This is getting ridiculous.

I understand that not all of us are from the same country. I am from the US. I have taken a year-long course in Civil and Federal Law and its appplication in the United States. Euthanasia is a topic that was studied and I remember it very well, and I have done actual [u]research[/u] on the subject, as apparently most of you have not.

The Declaration of Independence proclaims the "unalienable" right to life and liberty. [b]"Unalienable"[/b] means that a right cannot be forfeited, traded, or waived [b](even with one's own consent)[/b]. This directly applies to the alienation of life itself by assisted suicide. There is no "states' right" to legalize assisted suicide.
And therefore no federal right either. That's why suicide is illegal; 'yes' to all who do not live here in the United States and even those who do and are uninformed, suicide is illegal. It sounds ludicrous, as in 'how would the plaintiff be prosectued?', but it's true. Here's a definition of suicide brought to you by [url]http://www.dictionary.com:[/url] "the felonious killing of one's self; the deliberate and intentional destruction of one's own life by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind."

Key words; "sound mind". If someone who is of sound mind wishes to be killed, it's suicide. Patients have the common law right to refuse any medical treatment. A doctor who treats a patient against his or her expressed wishes can be charged with assault. People have the right to refuse treatment. So what is euthanasia? The patient is therefore [i]not[/i] of sound mind, and if one is not of sound mind, then decisions are made [i]for[/i] them. Otherwise, why in the world do you think the term "euthanasia" was ever created if it would mean the same thing as suicide??

Euthanasia and suicide are [i]not the same thing![/i]

Euthanasia,again [url]http://www.dictionary.com:[/url] "the act of [b]killing[/b] someone painlessly (especially someone suffering from an incurable illness) [syn: mercy [b]killing[/b]]" The context is such that one does the killing for another party, not a singular party killing itself.

Euthanasia isn't even fully legalized, and yet there are cases where doctors are actually killing off patients, an average 75% of which had possibilities of recovering. Look it up, it's there. Online, you'll find pro-life and pro-choice, but for facts go to the legal pages. [url]http://www.euthanasia.com[/url] has good sources of actual information. There could actually be a level-headed discussion here if people weren't so assuming (cloricus- you have no clue how old I am, and Harelquin- ignorance is just as bad as bigotry if not worse), and more informed on what's going on.

[Guest Saiyangohan2002]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=coral]This topic is indeed going around in circles...

I think a lot of people are agreeing or disagreeing without fully understanding what the subject is about.

We're not talking about mass suicides or doctors being able to choose who dies and who doesn't...that's not what it's about.

We're talking about in incredibly [i]small[/i] number of people in the community who would wish to end any sort of palliative care, if they are suffering from terminal physical illness.

[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Thats exactly the point I was trying to make. You can't say that anyone who wishes to end their life is of sound mind. The patient has been through so much suffering and pain that they are choosing to end this great gift of life, I personally think they're insane

but then i haven't been in their shoes and maybe I would change my veiws if that was the case, but then i would'nt be of sound mind, i would be saying anything to get away from the pain would'nt i?

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Saiyangohan2002 [/i]
[B]

Thats exactly the point I was trying to make. You can't say that anyone who wishes to end their life is of sound mind. The patient has been through so much suffering and pain that they are choosing to end this great gift of life, I personally think they're insane

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=coral]And this proves that you have never been in a situation (or never seen a situation) where someone who is completely sound of mind chooses to end their life via euthanasia.

If you are old, going through inexplicable pain and are suffering from a degenerative terminal illness...and you [i]know[/i] that you are going to die in a few years (or a few months) anyway...then I don't see the problem with saying "please turn off my life support, I want to die with dignity with my family around me".

There is a minor percentage of cases where this kind of practice would be acceptable...and as I mentioned, I wouldn't have the heart to turn to someone like that and say "you're insane...you are going to have to just lay there and die slowly and painfully".

If you put yourself in that situation, the ideas behind this concept become more clear.[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

James although I agree with you, some people have largely differing views. In that situation he might do that. I know people who have done that, and people who have obliged to the patience?s wishes.

[The Harlequin]

Cloricus, no matter how many people you know that have been in such a situation, the problem will still be there until there is an institutionalised view of things. Anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

[Guest cloricus]

What did I say that had anything to do with that. I was replying to a previous post.

[The Harlequin]

Quote then damn it.