The Anzac legend

[liamc2]

Now this is one thing that came over me, not to mention the current event of the last Anzac passing away, among numerous other reasons.

Moving onto the point, I?ve decided to post up sections of the Anzac legend, mainly ones that interested me and caught my eye, that I hope you might find appealing also. I have added my own words among the excerpts from texts that have been given to me.

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[size=3][ ?To feel the concentrated pull of the Anzac spirit you must go there. Walk the beaches and the hills and pause a while at the little cemeteries to read the names and the achingly young ages and say a prayer for lifetimes lost?][/size]

Australia was a relatively young country when the call to war reached it, fourteen years old since federation, and eager to prove itself to the larger countries already rallied for the battle that lay ahead.

?News cabled on 5 August that Britain, and therefore the Empire, was at war with Germany immediately impacted on that post-colonial generation of Australian men and their families. They responded in patriotic droves. In the cities long queues of young men eager to sign up formed outside recruiting centres. Country boys marched together down dusty roads, some walked isolated tracks alone, some rode horses. All had a single purpose: to volunteer to serve their country at war, which too often would mean to volunteer their lives.?

Ages ranged from 18 to 45, and the youngest, the 14 year olds that faked their age to fight and die for their country.

Fourteen years of age. Such a sacrifice, a decision to travel to a country unheard of, to fight in disease ridden conditions where death stalked in every corner. Those boys were our age, if not, younger. To think, would you be able to make that decision? Would you, no pressure what so ever, go out of your way, forge your age and join the army?

I think not

417 000 Australians enlisted in the army that year. Australia?s population was five and a half million at that time.
New Zealand?s was only one million, and they gave 100 000 of their finest, a staggering 10% of their population.

At 4.29 am on Sunday 25 April 1915, Queenslanders of the 9th Battalion landed in front of the foreboding black cliffs. They had landed in the wrong place, the current taking them further up the coast than planned. Two kilometres away, the planned landing area, was a flat stretch of coast, relatively safe compared to the soon to be blood soaked cliffs of Ari Burnu.

As the landing boats continued to pile up on the beach, confused officers tried to make sense of the useless maps. The only choice they had was to make camp and ready themselves for the mad charge that would cost many their lives.

One account of one of the suicidal charges:

[i]?I can remember wading to the coarse land and stepping over dead men as I raced to the cliff face. Everyone was rushing madly up the cliffs. Rifles were snapping; shells were bursting; in front of bayonets were glistening in the half light; and behind us was the roar of the ships.?[/i]

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Well that?s it so far. .I?ll try to put more up for your interest, feel free to make comments. .after all, this is in general discussion. .

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic]Alright, this is probably going to offend some people, but I'll say it anyway.

The ANZAC legend is the most glorified stupidity around. We celebrate the fact that a bunch of people sat in a hole for a while, then ran in and got themselves shot due to general idiocy on the general's part. How is this noble? How did this sacrafice that proved nothing really help us?[/font]

[Guest cloricus]

Harlequin!
I can't believe you missed an opportunity there!

It was not only a stupid mistake but also the worst in Australian military history.
They ****ed up so bad it wasn't funny.

You should read about it.

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic]Cloricus, this might surprise you, but every now and again I decide to display a veneer of manners. Try it sometime, it's great opportunity to stab people in the back afterwards.

Anyway. As for the (and I paraphrase)"Would you go off to war?" part, no Liam, I would not. If people wish to invade Australia, I would resist, but under no circumstances would I sacrafice my life for a cause so removed from affecting me that it was almost ironic. You know that already, but this gives people a chance to argue with me[/font]

[Boba Fett]

While I am not a Aussie, I do know what ANZAC day is.

I feel that that the Australian goverment felt connected to Britan, and that is why they went to war. I dont think that Australia needed to be involved, but it was anyway. The Australian goverment made the right choice. It supported a just cause. Unfortunately, mistakes were made and Australian and New Zealand's troops were slaughtered.

ANZAC day remembers their sacrifice, that [B]DID[/B] make a difference, however small it may seem.

As for if I would defend my country, depends. If the war is on my home soil, yes I would fight. If it is in some other country, forget it.

[James]

[color=coral]To call ANZAC day "idiocy" is one of the most disrespectful and offensive things I can possibly fathom, as an Australian citizen.

The main reason why so many died at Gallipolli, was the fact that the British (at that point), were sitting on another beach drinking tea while our men were being slaughtered by the Turkish Army (who had machine guns...our troops at the time merely had bayonettes).

The issue is not whether or not the landing or the war itself was stupid. Many would say that America shouldn't have been involved in Vietnam.

And many people do not hold the Vietman veterans (or the ANZACS) in high enough regard, purely because they felt that the situation itself was foolish or inapproprate.

But that is completely irrelevant here.

We are talking about men who died for their country. They died because their Government told them to go out there and fight for their British comrades. And despite the fact that they were facing overwhelming opposition (how can a bayonette compete with a machine gun?!), they still stood up and took their place...and they died doing so.

If you yourself were put in that situation, you would know the horror and suffering that occurred. To make light, or to dismiss this important event in Australian history is not only un-Australian, but is also the absolute hight of rudeness and disrespect.[/color]

[Kent]

austraillian new zealand amry corps.
believe it or not, the commanding officer had the chance to "let the troops live" by not going on with the invasion by the anzac forces. but, the c.o. wanted to have something nice for his superiors.
the movie gallipoli is very accurate.
two disrepencies, 1, the officer they make out to be a brit, was actually an australlian.
2, there was a forth charge they dont show. its said that at the end of that charge there were bodies stacked a meter high.
i salute the anzacs and any other solider that died in battle.
in america we have a day called memorial day for that.

[Flash]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=coral]To call ANZAC day "idiocy" is one of the most disrespectful and offensive things I can possibly fathom, as an Australian citizen.

The main reason why so many died at Gallipolli, was the fact that the British (at that point), were sitting on another beach drinking tea while our men were being slaughtered by the Turkish Army (who had machine guns...our troops at the time merely had bayonettes).

The issue is not whether or not the landing or the war itself was stupid. Many would say that America shouldn't have been involved in Vietnam.

And many people do not hold the Vietman veterans (or the ANZACS) in high enough regard, purely because they felt that the situation itself was foolish or inapproprate.

But that is completely irrelevant here.

We are talking about men who died for their country. They died because their Government told them to go out there and fight for their British comrades. And despite the fact that they were facing overwhelming opposition (how can a bayonette compete with a machine gun?!), they still stood up and took their place...and they died doing so.

If you yourself were put in that situation, you would know the horror and suffering that occurred. To make light, or to dismiss this important event in Australian history is not only un-Australian, but is also the absolute hight of rudeness and disrespect.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm a New Zealand citizen... And I totally agree James. Very well put... It's hard to believe that so many people died... especially with the small populations of the countries at the time.

[Guest Matt]

[color=red][b]I am not an Aussie nor have heard of ANZACS day. But from what I've read, the troops did the best and fought the bravest that they could. Anyone who thinks otherwise is entitled to thier opinion, but are complete dolts.[/b][/color]

[Justin]

ANYONE who has the courage to die for others is a hero. And I spit on anyone who says otherwise.

I think that America's involvment in Vietnam was stupid, but the men who died in the war are heros, nonetheless. The same goes for the ANZACs.

Now, for those who say that the men who gave up their lives were stupid and ridiculous, consider this: You're(whether you like it or not) forced to fight overwhelming odds, and SOMEHOW you survive. But when you return home, after having seen so many of your comrades fall in blood and chaos, you are spat upon for having 'wasted your time'...if you can honestly imagine that scenario and not feel robbed, then congratulations--you're not human.

-Justin

[NeoCactuar]

I'm a proud New Zealander, and as James put it "To call ANZAC day "idiocy" is one of the most disrespectful and offensive things I can possibly fathom..."

ANZAC is a symbol of what our ancestors were willing to do to make sure that we were here today. They were brave men, many with families, and many being young adults, from families. They fought to ensure that their children, grandchildren & great grandchildren would live on. And so we do, we live on, and we remember the great sacrifice they made.

To say that is was there own fault, they walked into a slaughter is simply disrespectful and disgusting. These men didn?t know that they were fighting an extremely unfair battle. They were told that there were no other armies available, they were told that this battle was vital to the winning of the war; they were told they would out-number the Turks, and over run them.

While maybe they outnumbered the Turks, they were severely out armed. They had to fight there way up a beach, and through hills and valleys, riddled with Turkish machine gun emplacements. It was a battle they were surely to lose...

So, on ANZAC day, we remember those men, and what they fought to protect. People like me, a New Zealander...

[Jesus Chicken]

Regardless however often it happens, war will break out, people will die... It's what we do then that matters, I don't know weather I would resist or not... I only think I would resist if we were under threat from a dictatorship, I would most definalty put my life on the line, as the ANZACS did.
They died for what they belived in. I think anyone willing to do that is a hero in their own right, regardless what cause they died for.
Sorry to disagree with you now Harlequin but as you said its a good opportunity to stab people in the back...
I have to agree when they said to call it an idocy was idiocy itself.

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic]As I said, that was going to offend a few people, but I said it anyway. And yes, I am an Australian.

Alright then people, my arguments. As a few people here have stated, most of the death was because of the British generals fault. A few people here have also failed to note that while I said the ANZAC fiasco was stupidity, I never undermined the bravery or sacrafice of the men themselves. I believe, as many others here seem to, that it takes a lot of guts to die for one's country. I never disputed that. But what I say is this. We celebrate the fact that they died at all, even more than celebrate the lives of those who survived. Call it celebrating their sacrafice if you will, but it doesn't change what it is. If you were an ANZAC veteran, would you want to come back and hear that an entire country is celebrating the fact that whole regiments of your friends were slaughtered?

Yes, the troops, as stated, fought their way through machine gun encampments. Why? They were told to. That was the most pointless waste of human life. Many lives would have been saved if the generals had invested something in artillery back up. I make no pretenses here, I believe that the entire war was a waste of life. To twist around a saying so arrogantly placed in here by several people, anybody who thinks otherwise has never placed themselves in an ANZAC veterans place.[/font]

[Jesus Chicken]

I don't consider ANZAC day a celebration, nor do I consider ( I imagine people agree with me) that we have such a day to commerate they fact that they just died.
We remember thay ANZACS we killed for a cause they belived in, Trying to defend us and our country. These people made the ultimate sacrifice and the fact that thousands died, we have to put away our petty discussoin for a short minute, and remeber that on a beach many ANZACs laid down ther life, for us.

[Guest cloricus]

[Color=teal]
James, I have no idea if you know this or not.
I didn't mean it as a stuff up to go to the war in the first place. I meant that they where sent to the wrong beach, by British OIC's and further on when they where ordered to retreat by the Australian CO ([I]Who was in Britain at the time.[/I]) a stupid British OIC ([I]Who was on the beach HQ and in command[/I]) kept them there where I think an extra 10,000 soldiers died needlessly.
This on top of other mistakes is why Australian soldiers don?t like being put under the command of some one not from Australia.


Also as the war turned out we did have to fight in it, because if we hadn't we would of had no support from the allies when Australia was attacked. Now I know you might say, "Hay they had our troops over there fighting for them and not defending our soil." You would be right, [I]but[/I] the extra troops from Australia and New Zealand helped save England, who in turn brought America in to the war after pearl harbour, who in turn built the atomic bomb saving all our asses.


And James, at times the Axis only had bayonet?s when they where fighting the Allies. So don?t make it sound so one sided. Both sides went though the same things. The Allies just came out on top.


I have always been brought up to despise war, but I also respect all who died in battle.

I also think there should be more recognition for other battles apart from Gallipolli (WW1), Milne Bay (WW2) and Lone Pine (WW1).
[/Color]

[The Unholy Newt]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=coral]To call ANZAC day "idiocy" is one of the most disrespectful and offensive things I can possibly fathom, as an Australian citizen.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

EXACTLY!! People (Especially Australian Citizens) should have some bloody respect for people who defended their country and kept it how it is today. Think. If those ANZAC's and others had failed in what they were achieving. the nazi's would have taken over the world and you probably would'nt even be born. Or worse you could be in some concentration camp. Or a slave
for those nazi bastards. Sorry. There aren't many things I stand for but I do stand for Patriotism through and through. And people who don't have respect for their country and people who set out to achieve what their country has become shouldn't even be allowed to live there.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Harlequin [/i]
[B][font=gothic]
Yes, the troops, as stated, fought their way through machine gun encampments. Why? They were told to. That was the most pointless waste of human life. Many lives would have been saved if the generals had invested something in artillery back up. I make no pretenses here, I believe that the entire war was a waste of life. To twist around a saying so arrogantly placed in here by several people, anybody who thinks otherwise has never placed themselves in an ANZAC veterans place.[/font] [/B][/QUOTE]
[color=coral]Definitely, war is a waste of life. Any war is a waste of life.

But the meaning of what the ANZACs did was very important. And if anything, it demonstrated that Australia was solidly behind the British and the rest of the allies.

I am personally proud that Australia has been involved in every major conflict this century. Why? Simply because, despite war being a nasty and horrible thing, our involvement has demonstrated in no uncertain terms what side we are on -- the side which favors peace and democracy.

And that is a very important message to send out. I would hate to be a citizen of a country that is constantly "neutral" to everything. Being neutral in some cases is fine, but sometimes, if you are neutral...you have already accepted defeat.

As for the whole issue of Australians [i]not[/i] being technically outweighed (Cloricus), I'm afraid that's totally wrong.

If you ever see [i]any[/i] movie based on the ANZACs (or read any book), you'll be aware that at Gallipolli, the Turks were utilizing semi-automated weaponry and our troops were not.

Sure, we should have had such weaponry...and sure, the entire situation could have been organized in a better fashion. I don't deny that and I'm sure that any ANZAC would not deny that.

But we cannot use these discrepancies to diminish the importance and value of what the ANZACs did and achieved at this point in history.

Despite the huge loss of life at Gallipolli, the ANZACs achieved many important wins in other parts of the world -- wins that helped to turn the tables against the Nazis and others.

Regardless of any disagreements about the war itself, I'm sure that as long as we recongize the ANZACs for their bravery and sacrifice...then surely that's the most important aspect of this discussion.[/color]

[Amphion]

Harlequin

You should never, EVER, call anything that had to do with brave men dieing for their country idiocy! Thats a slap in the face to every man or women who has served their country! No matter what they where fighting for, they where called upon to serve by there country and they did so as bravely as they could, and DIED doing it! They had families, some with kids. they gave all that up so that they could serve there country when there country needed them. Even if it was for something as foolish as Vietnam, they still did what there country asked of them, and did the best they could for it. I do not care who or what country we are talking about, what you said was disrespectful to anyone who has ever put on there country's uniform.

Sorry, I know this is a little late, but I was verry offened by that comment. I have two family memebers who gave there life for their country in WWII and I have 1 family memeber who is i n the Marines.

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic]Alright, look. I am going to hand the next person who says that I find the bravery and sacrafice of the ANZACS idiocy up by the shoulder blades. FOR GOD'S SAKE! How many times do I have to say it? I FOUND THE WAR ITSELF IDIOCY! Can some of the people here get that clear? I respect those who would die for ones country. I personally wouldn't, because it means nothing to me. But someone with as little imagination as I can put myself in a soldier's place, and I respect those with the convictions strong enough for such a sacrafice. Have I made myself clear yet? If anyone else wants to dispute what I may have meant, PM me about it, so I can deal with you personally.

As for your remark, The Unholy Newt, patriotism is the belief that your country is better thane very other country because you were born in it. Pure egotism. There is a difference between patriotism and conviction.[/font]

[liamc2]

All of you have marvellously interesting points to make, and I have a quote from a Anzac?s diary to place, as well as more food for thought.

[b]?One thought uppermost in my mind as I sit here is that I will not be found wanting, shall not find myself a coward?[/b]

That quote was from a certain 32 year old farmer from the 14th Artillery Brigade by the name of C.B. Giffin.

Few of the 60 000 Anzacs who came to Gallipoli did not have similar thoughts before they stepped onto that deadly place which was to claim 11 400 Australian and New Zealand lives. They should not have worried. They were all mates and they would stick together even if it meant dying together.

[James]

[color=coral]I don't think anyone is saying that The Harlequin believes that the loss of life was idiocy...but the war itself certainly wasn't idiocy, whichever way you choose to look at it.

Patriotism can go a little far...but it isn't necessarily the belief that your country is better than all others. I'm fairly patriotic, but I believe that patriotism is the ability to analyse your country's faults as well as its achievements.[/color]

[Amphion]

Well, I see your point and the difference but I still beleive that Either way its still disrespectful. I think that to them it was not something stupid. I do not know what went down, but I do know that when your fighting for your life , under any circumstances its not something thats idiocy.

But im glad that you where not talking about the Soldiers and stuff, cause that would be low.

Anyway, James is right about Patriotism. Alot of people try and beleive that. No country is better than another. US may be good in some areas, where other countries are better in others. If you look back in history all the Countries lead by arrogant leaders who beleived his country was better then the rest, they all where defeated. (Romans, Germans - Twice -)

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic]And then you have the almost legendary arrogance of certain recent American leaders...[/font]

[Ravenstorture]

[color=darkgreen][font=gothic]Oh look, another war thread. I havent read much, but I'll throw this one in anyway:
[quote]
[I]Originally written by the Sunday Courier (or, the sydney sunday), 3 June 02:[/I]
Recently deceased anzac legend... to be cryogenically frozen today.... freezing process postponed.... due to family objections... and the loss of a leg.
[/quote]
What the hell is that meant to mean???

[/font][/color]

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic]I thought it was pretty straightforward. Now, this kind of thing confirms my theory about why the governments are paying so much attention to the ANZACS lately.

With the thinning number of veterans over the past few years, the government has not only been pressured into feeling guilty about neglecting them by the public, they are also losing a useful public rallying symbol. So, by freezing an ANZAC veteran, the government is really ensuring that they make a show of honouring the ANZACS, while keeping the digger's influence and legend personally around.

A bit far-fetched, a bit cynical, but if you're anything like me, you'll be more than willing to believe the worst about politicians.[/font]