Gaming Games becoming "boring"?

[James]

[color=royalblue]Even your reference to Banjo-Kazooie and the like is way off. These games are aimed at all ages, not just young kids.

I can sit down and play a game like Banjo-Kazooie and thoroughly enjoy it -- and find challenge in the more complex parts of it.

To dismiss the console because you think that some games are aimed at children is in itself childish.

If you enjoyed the SNES for its wealth of third party games, then certainly, I can see why N64 might dissappoint you.

But in terms of the Nintendo classics, N64 was up there with SNES.

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit harsh, but I am [i]really[/i] sick of this whole "kiddie" nonsense...as soon as someone uses that as a way of dismissing an entire console, it becomes obvious that they don't really understand games at all.[/color]

[Desbreko]

[color=indigo]Well, I can see why some people might not like the N64 because of the lack of third party support... But not because it has lots of "kiddie" games... Sure, it has some games aimed exclusively towards little kids, but all consoles do. Banjo-Kazooie, however, is not one of those games.

What annoys me, is that some people just assume a game is aimed exclusively towards little kids simply because it's [i]suitable[/i] for little kids. I mean, really, does a game have to be filled with blood and gore for older people to enjoy it? Absolutely not! Why do you think games like Banjo-Kazooie, Donkey Kong 64, Super Mario 64, Zelda: Ocarina of time, Zelda: Majora's Mask, and others sold so well? If only little kids bought those games, they certainly wouldn't have been [i]nearly[/i] as succesful as they are.[/color]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Desbreko [/i]
[B][color=indigo]
What annoys me, is that some people just assume a game is aimed exclusively towards little kids simply because it's [i]suitable[/i] for little kids. I mean, really, does a game have to be filled with blood and gore for older people to enjoy it? Absolutely not! [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Just remember that a purely adult oriented game does not have to contain blood and gore. I consider Medal of Honor an adult oriented game and there is not a single drop of blood throughout the [I]entire[/I] game.

When people accuse games such as Banjo-Kazooie of being childish, they are just looking at the game's concept from the outside, which is actually childish itself. Don't judge a book by it's cover, I always say.

Once someone actually gets behind the controller, however, is becomes readily apparent that challenge and deep gameplay are as evident as they are in the Medal of Honor series. Hehe, I wouldn't even go are far as to say that Banjo-Kazooie is suitable for children; it would probably be too difficult for most youngsters. :p

Anyway, back on topic here, it's important to realize that the availability of more powerful hardware doesn't mean that developers will fully utilize it.

If you stand back and look at a lot of the games being released, they do nothing to revolutionize their genres. In reality, they just dash a couple extra features into the formula and upgrade the graphics.

Nintendo focuses on gameplay mechanics for the most part, truly moving forward it's franchises through both creativity and design. [I]Eventually[/I], the hardware will limit what the developers want to do or stop them from going where they want to go, but until then, rock on.

[James]

[color=royalblue]I agree with CWB somewhat here.

We are at a stage where the hardware is growing -- but really, all we can do now is improve graphics. And for many less talented developers, this leads them to a dilemma; they can't improve graphics much further, yet they have no gameplay ideas.

And gameplay is where it's at, plain and simple.

That is why I am so excited about games like Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness -- both of these games are pushing the boundaries when it comes to gameplay design. And really, that's what it should be all about.[/color]

[wrist cutter]

Ever since the "console race" began (I believe it was around the time the PlayStation was released), I just lost interest in games. So many games were so intensely focused on graphics and such I just didn't care anymore.

And about games being too childish - I [i]love[/i] games for "all ages". In fact, they're my favorite type of game. Stuff like Super Mario Brothers, Battletoads, and Double Dragon will never be outdone as long as everyone focuses on improving the looks of their games.

[James]

[color=royalblue]I agree 100% with wrist cutter.

Too many companies have been focusing on graphics, rather than gameplay. Sony actually sent a memo to its third party developers last year, saying something to the effect of "we want you to make your games shorter, but with better graphics". This was done in order to compete with the more powerful GameCube and Xbox platforms.

It's kind of sad...

And it's great that games like Mario Sunshine are focusing purely on unadulterated fun...rather than trying to render every blade of grass in perfect detail.[/color]

[Desbreko]

[color=indigo]Yes, I know that adult oriented games don't have to contain blood and gore. That was just one example.

That is sad... I mean, really, do they think graphics are that important? That sounds like a really stupid thing to do, in my oppinion. When the graphics can't really get any better, which seems like it's going to be soon, people will hopefully look at gameplay again. Now, I know everyone doesn't buy games for the graphics, but it seems like a lot of people do. If Sony focuses on graphics more than gameplay, I really can't see them doing very well in the future.[/color]

[Charles]

Yep, many people do buy games simply for graphics. It's apparent that gaming companies realize this. I don't think I remember seeing many ads selling a game based on it's gameplay. In all fairness, some campaigns make mention of gameplay, but they usually feature vague praise or rhetoric, rather than certifiable truth.

Usually they focus on one outstanding feature or graphics. I've seen a lot of ads that pull the "This is an actual game footage" trick, where a whole page of a magazine is dedicated to one, blown up image.

Often times, the average consumer is heavily influenced by the name of a game and it's overall presentation. This should be obvious in a Nintendo forum, where various people claim that games are "kiddie" based on appearance alone.

Plus, since arcade gaming is said to be dying out, we're seeing a lot of those gamers float over to console gaming. Of course, they have to be accommodated.

As you know, arcade gaming is usually focused on strong graphics and quick enjoyment.

That's why games like Crazy Taxi, which should never be ported over tohome consoles, are. All flash, little substance. :p

Let's face it though, quick fun beats out a steep learning curve as far as sales go. I'll bet that more people bought Crazy Taxi, then Carnage Heart.

[Guest ProudClod]

Too true, I like great graphics as much as the next guy, graphics in a game probably just give games a better score in the reviews, and thats it, look at great games like Final Fantsy 7, there real-time graphics put me off really badly, but I played it, and loved it, the simple approaches are usually the best ones. just look at the ps2 design, it is just black, with a hint of blue, which gives it a futuristic look.

Many games like to conn people, especially big time gamers, for example MGS2, the scene where it shows Snake fighting Fortune, and the part where Snake is being chased by water. It states in the bonus dvd explains why these scenes arent in the game, but think about it, would we ever know if we never saw the dvd? its not like its a teaser trailer, that would be acceptable....but as for Kojima, I want to see more of Snake and less of Raiden!

[ZeroBlade]

Whoa, pretty heated debate here since I was gone for a while :)

Ok, I'll have to agree with James and such about even the 'Kiddie' games tend to much better than some or the adult games out there. I did remember reading somewhere though at the time the N64 was out, they were a little more focused to make games for the younger gamers and they did well, and sometimes better than some of the best looking games at the time. Now after I read wrist cutter's post, I noticed that all of the video game companies where merely making games look better just to advertise their consoles. There have been many games realeased with like the 'greatest gfx' at the time and turns out to be just another game thats either bad, for like 'fans only' or so-so games.

Hearing about companies finally going back to their roots sure is great news. Especially when they said they're gonna be making 'new' games and seeing games like Devil May Cry being in a class all its own, then I look forward to the future. But I'm also a little worried about the future of games as well with them going online now. I'm worried that now in order to enjoy a game you have to go online just to have fun which is kinda sad to me since it might result in very few games being fun in single player mode and thats what made games so great in the beginning. What do you guys think?

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ZeroG214 [/i]
[B]Whoa, pretty heated debate here since I was gone for a while :)

Ok, I'll have to agree with James and such about even the 'Kiddie' games tend to much better than some or the adult games out there. I did remember reading somewhere though at the time the N64 was out, they were a little more focused to make games for the younger gamers and they did well, and sometimes better than some of the best looking games at the time.
[/B][/QUOTE]

*Falls over*

That's just it. These "Kiddie" games [I]aren't[/I] kiddie games. I think that was the point of what he was saying. How can you agree with what he's saying if you're saying that although Nintendo produces "kiddie" games, they're able to compete with adult-oriented games? :whoops:

Children's games and adult oriented games shouldn't be put on a pedestal where fluffy characters and gore determine a game's target audience.

Let's look at Zelda for GameCube. The game is extremely colorful and friendly to the eye. Yet, it's deep gameplay and clever worlds make it more than a child's game. The same could probably be said of Pikmin.

We need to measure games' maturity based on how much you have to [I]think[/I] in a game, not on how the main character looks.

Moving on, Nintendo didn't focus on making children's games. If I stick a little kid with Mario 64, I can promise you that he won't get all 1[B]2[/B]0 stars. Furthermore, can you sit back and tell me that Goldeneye or Perfect Dark are aimed at children?

Lastly, not necessarily directed at you, when talking about all graphics and no gameplay, Acclaim and Midway are usually guilty. Acclaim has proven that they can deliver, but only when they want to and not a moment sooner.

[wrist cutter]

I'm not a gaming freak (as I mentioned earlier in this thread), and I don't really know much about these gaming companies, but I have to defend Miday a bit. The NBA JAM and Mortal Kombat series are really great games :)

[Desbreko]

[color=indigo]There are 120 Power Stars in Super Mario 64. :) And yes, some can be [i]very[/i] difficult to get. The 100 Coin Star in Tick Tock Clock was one of the hardest for me.

I agree, though, games shouldn't be dubbed "kiddie" games based on how they look. Donkey Kong 64 is a good example. I borrowed it from my friend for awhile, and the later levels got to be pretty dang hard, not to mention a few of the bosses. And it also makes you think, for the puzzles.

And yes, Pikmin is also a good example. Another friend of mine owns it, and it's not a really easy game. It really makes you think to solve the puzzles. That, and multi-tasking with all your Pikmin takes some thought, too. It definitely isn't a game for little kids.[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Desbreko [/i]
[B][color=indigo]
I agree, though, games shouldn't be dubbed "kiddie" games based on how they look. Donkey Kong 64 is a good example. I borrowed it from my friend for awhile, and the later levels got to be pretty dang hard, not to mention a few of the bosses. And it also makes you think, for the puzzles.

[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]Definitely. I thought DK64 was a little [i]too[/i] busy in terms of the amount of collectibles, but games like Banjo-Kazooie demonstrated that so-called "kiddie" games can still be complex and utilize strong puzzle solving elements.

I would say that BK was probably a lot more difficult than Super Mario 64 was -- a child would have great difficulty in finishing the game.

Furthermore, I don't think that the whole kiddie thing is necessarily so bad anyway. One of the things that Miyamoto can do which no other designer can, is make a fifty year old man feel like a ten year old again. Both myself and my dad can enjoy these games despite their exterior feel...purely because they are so imaginative that they totally draw you in...and you feel like you are taking part in the adventure.

That is the magic of Nintendo -- and that is the reason why those who dismiss "kiddie" games are [i]really[/i] missing out.[/color]

[Red]

[B]I think people take a look at a Nintendo game such as Super Mario 64 and dismiss it as a "little kids" game, or they just play it for 5 minutes.

I'm a hardcore gamer, (as I'm sure many of you are) I write reviews and I like to keep an open mind. When the N64 came out it blew my mind. Not only with graphics, but the gameplay and gripping fun that some of its launch titles had.

Of all the consoles I own, (I own quite a few) my N64 games collection is by far the biggest, they are all games that I found to be the games that would turn into classics, such as SM64 and Super Smash Brothers.

I am not being Nintendo biased, but just saying that some people shouldn't blow Nintendo's games/hardware off so fast.

On the subject of hardware, these machines are designed to be [i]games consoles.[/i] Where's the game in playing a DVD? I love the fact that Nintendo have left out a DVD player in the GC, as I (and millions of others) have bought it for the games.

On another note, DK64 was way too busy with collecting things, I still haven't finished it. *cries*[/B]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Elite DBZ [/i]
[B][B]I think people take a look at a Nintendo game such as Super Mario 64 and dismiss it as a "little kids" game, or they just play it for 5 minutes.

[/B] [/B][/QUOTE]

I know exactly what you mean on the children's issue.

Last night I was watching coverage of this year's E3 on television and two hosts gave their opinions on each booth.

One of the hosts referred to himself as the "Everyman" of gaming. And guess what? His score for Nintendo's booth was a 4.0 out of 10.

His CO-host was actually impressed with Nintendo's display being thoroughly satisfied with Metroid Prime, Mario Sunshine, The Legend of Zelda and Resident Evil Zero.

"Everyman" was obviously disappointed, claiming that Nintendo was only focusing on childrens' games. Mario Sunshine was his main target. Not only did he claim that it was targeted primarily towards children, but he noticed that it had poor texturing (with pixalization rearing it's ugly head). Heh heh, he did seem kind of biased though. That was pretty obvious when he said that Super Mario World looked better.

Although, his partner, who was a hard-core gamer, argued against his comments, I wonder if this guy really did represent "Everyman."

The only games that impressed him were Resident Evil Zero along with Metroid Prime a distant second (he was disappointed that it wasn't a side scroller).

[James]

[color=royalblue]CWB: I definitely think that the guy you are referring to was biased.

I mean, I suppose that for someone who is not a gamer...or who is looking at the discussion from the outside, it may very well appear that we are all Nintendo-biased.

And I can understand that kind of perception somewhat -- but I also think that people who truly understand video games will also recognize that Nintendo manages to create games that can really make adults feel like kids again. And that's certainly a good thing.

When Nintendo 64 was released, I felt very hyped up about it...mainly because it was such a big revolution at the time.

But when PS2/DC launched, I wasn't nearly as excited. Even with GameCube, my excitement wasn't as great.

And yet, after reading everything from E3 and watching the videos and such...I feel just as excited about these games as I did when N64 game out. And I think that really demonstrates that the move from 2D to 3D wasn't the issue -- it was the fact that games were exploring new territory in ways that they never had before.

And I think that is what we are seeing now to some extent. Nintendo is really trying to push games in new directions. And I think that even people who aren't big Nintendo fans should still be pleased with that. Hopefully it will encourage other companies to push the boundaries of gaming as well.[/color]

[Guest ProudClod]

Hmmm....if anyone said that these boards didnt have intelligent people, they would be lying....:)

I have to agree with all of you there, especially James, just because a game looks babyish, it doesnt mean that they will be. A prime example is Street Fighter, it has the cartoony looks, mild violence, the funny catch phrases, but, god pulling off those combos took me a whole week! the game play is faster than the speed of light, [I]and[/I] on top of that, there are to many buttons to remember. Now look at a game like Mortal Kombat, it may have the serious violent, depressing look, but it was just too damn easy, well, easier than Street Fighter. Its examples like this which just prove that gameplay is a bigger concern to most people, not just graphics.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]CWB: I definitely think that the guy you are referring to was biased.
[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, and I believe that the issue of that man being biased is very important.

Although I didn't catch the very beginning of the show, it is fairly obvious that the guest host wasn't a hardcore gamer--which leads to an interesting thought.

Since we're talking about videogames becoming boring, I wonder if we can look at gaming through the casual gamer's eyes. After all, this guy did claim to be the average Joe Gamer.

Maybe the days for games like Mario are numbered. This may be a little deep for this discussion, I dunno, but maybe people are looking for something different in games today.

People who are familiar with gaming, can appreciate new Mario or Zelda titles because they know what they stand for. On the other side of the coin, there are people spoon fed games that are more so interactive movies than anything.

Maybe it wasn't just that this guy was biased, but also the direction that times and people are taking.

Enough of my rambling though. I think I might be going past the point of this whole thread, heh heh. :sleep:

[ZeroBlade]

I don't think this man was being biased at all. Perhaps crazy white boy is right and that he was looking for 'new' games. However his judging on the game just by looking at it is wrong. True Mario does look childish but that never reflects how a game really is. Its funny how that people who judge games by looks, act the same way as people who label anime as cartoons.

Personally, I am one of those long time gamers looking for new types of games to play. I played all those 'kiddie' games since we can't judge a games by its looks. There are great games out there, but I easily get turned off by them if I played a similar game before or once I beat it. Also like I said in my previous post, I wonder if the era of online gaming (console wise) would mark the end of 'true' games being made.

As for the 'baised man' co-reviewer. Its possible this hardcore game is new to video games and is therefore easliy excited with any game. But if neither man is what we are assuming and thats what they truly feel about games then I would have to respect that.

[Saiya-jinro]

I completely agree. Even the first time they had shown off the new Zelda, I didn't think it looked stupid. It may have caught my eye. But, i didn't act immature about it, and dismiss it. The new Mario game is going too be great too. Nintendo games weren't meant too have the greatest looking graphics on a console. To this day, I still enjoy playing Ocirina of Time once in awhile. I even play the first Pokemon games too. I do like great graphics as well. Look at X-Box, in Japan its not doing really well, and thats the same with Euorpe I think. Thats enough with this rant. :)