Anime Saiyan Class

[Desiivy]

Maybe someone knows I'm curious about the differences between Goku & Vegeta, as far as class, on the planet Vegeta.
I recall in the episode " The long awaited fight"
Vegeta states that Goku is a low class or level (not sure which) clown, I figured it was because He's a prince and Goku isn't.
But then I read that Goku's father rejected him because he was a low class. I found that to be strange just because I thought you were same class as your parents, since Vegeta'a a prince cuz he is the son of a prince, it makes since Goku would be the same class as his father. why would he reject him if he were the same???
This confused me???

But, yesterday I watched DBZ, and while talking to Goku, Nappa
said your no match for me, your strength is determined at birth,
Do they ever go into anymore detail around this subject, cuz it sure does explain a few things.

Thanks alot,
Desirae
:)

[Geist]

[COLOR=blue]I don't think they do. At least not in the anime series. I'm most likely wrong though.[/COLOR]

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo]Vegeta is a Saiya-jin Prince, part of the Elite Class. If I'm not mistaken I believe somewhere along the lines it said that Gokou was a Third Class Saiya-jin.

Gokou's father didn't reject him. Even a person who watches the dubs could know that. In the flashback where it shows Furiza destroying the planet Vegeta. It even shows Bardock right as he is dying saying "My son lives on." Not quite the thing you'd be saying if you rejected your son. Not to mention in the Bardock movie special he keeps having future visions of Gokou.[/color]

[Desiivy]

[QUOTE]Gokou's father didn't reject him. Even a person who watches the dubs could know that. In the flashback where it shows Furiza destroying the planet Vegeta. It even shows Bardock right as he is dying saying "My son lives on." Not quite the thing you'd be saying if you rejected your son. Not to mention in the Bardock movie special he keeps having future visions of Gokou.[/QUOTE]




I really need to watch that movie, "Bardock, movie special"
I never have yet but i'm going to put it on my movie list,

I was mainly wanting to know if more detail, is explained about what Nappa had said. because of the diffrences in the power,
since no matter how someone works and trains, they still never get any stronger then an elite, with Goku being only 3rd class,
(yes, I recall that is what he said) Then to have everything turned up side down by one person, Explains why Vegeta is so bitter,
to Goku as a whole.


Thanks again, Desirae

[Syk3]

Yea, well, piro explained the classes quite well. Vegeta is a prince, which would classify him as a first-class saiya-jin, and Kakkarot would be a thrid-class because he was weak at birth. Goku would also be called a 'low level' as a nick name to make fun of him. To go into more detail, i believe that 1st-class deals with royalty and the most noble of the saiyan race. The next one would be 2nd-class, being those who had a strong enough power level at birth to be put in training. Lastly, those who are 3rd class are the weak at birth. Goku- 3rd, Vegeta, Nappa, and Radditz- 1st.

Well, maybe what u read about the rejection, is just to not get too close to him, which he did since Goku was weak and would be shipped to another planet anyway. However, when he saw the future, Bardock rejoiced that his son would defeat freeza, and ended up loving him. Did he defeat freeza? Yes, he beat him and killed him. But note, Trunks came back in time and killed freeza instead in the normal timeline. It was not supposed to happen.

They kind of go in detail to what nappa says, which can be found in Bardock: Father of Goku. He says that Goku's power was detirmined at birth so there is no way he could beat him. Like i sed, they measured his power and classified him 3rd class, meaning nappa thought he was still weak. Goku may hav had a weak power, but definitly wuite a strong potential, which we see in dbz.

Hope this helps.

[Desiivy]

Well, yes that is exactly what I wanted to know,



This is just my though, If I am wrong let me know okey!!!!



So they basically they measured Goku's power level at birth, to see what class that would be in, since Goku was 3rd he was considered expendable, and that's why he was sent to earth.

Saiyans can't go beyond their limits, If your born in one class, you stay in that class, because they can't train to get any higher??????

Since on Earth the more you train the better you get, Goku was able to surpass his class, and become stronger.
Which would explain why Gohan, Trunks & Goten have that potential, at birth, because of being half human???????
with Vegeta not spending as much time as Goku has on earth
his powers couldn't increase in the same way Goku's did, there for he is always one step behind him. ?????????
With him training on Earth for the 7 years he did, before the
buu saga, he was able to become even more stronger, and almost catch up with Goku. ?????????


Thank You, Desirae

[Nekkyo]

saiyans get stronger as they train. i dont think that the higher up in the wealth and yadda yadda matters. Radditz was Goku's brother. but Radditz was a 1st class because he was stronger at birth. no one would think that Goku would surpass anyone, and they thought he was weak. but he trained under King Kai's observation. and he train in 100x earth's gravity which, made him stronger. even Vegita was surpised when Goku turned super-saiyan before he did. and he was ranting and yadda yadda. so i really dont think that the class of a saiyan matters. i guess it just kinda downtroddens on the lower classes so they wont try to surpass it.

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Desiivy [/i]
[B]So they basically they measured Goku's power level at birth, to see what class that would be in, since Goku was 3rd he was considered expendable, and that's why he was sent to earth.[/b][/quote][color=indigo]Exactly.[/color]
[quote][b]Saiyans can't go beyond their limits, If your born in one class, you stay in that class, because they can't train to get any higher??????[/b][/quote][color=indigo]They [i]can[/i] train, but it won't earn them any special promotion. Gokou was born as a third class Saiya-jin, so he stays a third class Saiya-jin. No exceptions.[/color]
[quote][b]Since on Earth the more you train the better you get, Goku was able to surpass his class, and become stronger.
Which would explain why Gohan, Trunks & Goten have that potential, at birth, because of being half human???????[/b][/quote][color=indigo]Gokou never surpassed his 3rd level class. He may have surpassed every other third class Saiya-jin, but he did not become higher in rank. Training on Earth makes no difference in training advantages. No matter where you train, you are always going to get better and stronger. Gohan, Trunks, and Goten were born naturally stronger because of genetics. Their fathers were really strong and powerful, and they were born strong and powerful. Not as strong as their fathers, but stronger than most anyone else. Being human has nothing to do with it.[/color]
[quote][b]with Vegeta not spending as much time as Goku has on earth, his powers couldn't increase in the same way Goku's did, there for he is always one step behind him. ?????????[/b][/quote][color=indigo]Again, it makes no difference where you train, you are always going to get better. Gokou was always one step ahead of Vegeta because of [i]how[/i] he trained. Gokou always trained to reach some kind of another level, whereas Vegeta always trained to be the strongest in the level he is at. So, for example, while Vegeta is training to be the strongest Super Saiya-jin, Gokou is training to attain the level of Super Saiya-jin level 2.[/color]
[quote][b]With him training on Earth for the 7 years he did, before the buu saga, he was able to become even more stronger, and almost catch up with Goku. ?????????[/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]Vegeta never became stronger than Gokou. Sure he beat the daylights out of Gokou when he was Majin, but the whole time Gokou had the potential to transform into Super Saiya-jin level 3. He just never did because he didn't find it neccessary. It goes back to what I said up above. When fighting Gokou as Majin, they were both at Super Saiya-jin level 2. Gokou doesn't train to be stronger in his level, whereas Vegeta does, which is why Vegeta always beat Gokou (contrary to popular belief). If Gokou would have gone up to level 3, Vegeta would have been beat. Vegeta, by training for 7 years, only became stronger than Gohan, who had not been trainining the whole time.

Nice theories though. :)


Now I know I'm going to get some responses because I said Vegeta always beat Gokou, so I'll explain. In their first battle, many believe Gokou beat Vegeta. Not true. Vegeta beat Gokou to a pulp after transforming into his Oozaru form. It was Gohan who beat Vegeta down, and Krillen who threw the Genki Dama. Gokou just made the Genki Dama, but had no part in actually defeating Vegeta.[/color]

[Nekkyo]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B]Now I know I'm going to get some responses because I said Vegeta always beat Gokou, so I'll explain. In their first battle, many believe Gokou beat Vegeta. Not true. Vegeta beat Gokou to a pulp after transforming into his Oozaru form. It was Gohan who beat Vegeta down, and Krillen who threw the Genki Dama. Gokou just made the Genki Dama, but had no part in actually defeating Vegeta.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]


i agree. when Vegita and Goku fought during the Majin Buu saga, Vegita beat the tar out of Goku. Goku was left laying on the ground while Vegita went to go confront Fat Buu. :blush: and i'm kinda happy to see that i'm not the only one that uses the words Oozaru or Genki-Dama.

[LittleFluteSan]

There's something else that noone seems to be taking into consideration when talking about the powers of Goku in comparison to his class designation and the other Saiyans.

None of the other Saiyans, or noone in the universe for that matter, that didn't know about the Nameks and the Dragonballs had NO IDEA that people can be brought back to life when killed. Goku dies, not even strong enough to beat Radditz. He goes to otherworld and trains with King Kai to increase his strength and learn the Kaio-Ken and Spirit Bomb. In the regular sceme of things, the Saiyans would have had no way to predict that he'd receive this other-worldly training. Even still, he was only just as strong as Nappa. It was only using the Kaio-Ken that he was able to beat Vegeta.

In addition to that, when you watch the first Brolli movie, they make mention that Kakarrot has a low fighting power, but he possesed a strong fighting spirit. That strong fighting spirit, coupled with King Kai's training, helped him surpass the boundaries of being a Third Class Saiyan.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Nekkyo [/i]
[B]i agree. when Vegita and Goku fought during the Majin Buu saga, Vegita beat the tar out of Goku. Goku was left laying on the ground while Vegita went to go confront Fat Buu. :blush: and i'm kinda happy to see that i'm not the only one that uses the words Oozaru or Genki-Dama. [/B][/QUOTE]

For the record, Vegeta did not beat the tar out of Goku. In fact, Goku was just PLAYING with Vegeta to make the fight interesting. If Goku's true purpose while fighting Vegeta was to defeat him and subdue him, AT ANY MOMENT DURING THE COURSE OF THAT FIGHT, Goku could have just gone SS3 and beaten Vegeta in seconds. I think he kept it even at SS2 because: 1) for the sport of it, and 2) he didn't want to beat/kill Vegeta, he wanted to revert him to good.

[color=indigo]Please refrain from double posting. Just go back using the edit button.[/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LittleFluteSan [/i]
[B]It was only using the Kaio-Ken that he was able to beat Vegeta.[/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]Keeping in mind he didn't actually beat Vegeta. For Vegeta came back and stomped all over him.[/color]

[Masterdramon]

Vegeta did NOT beat the tar out of Goku. Vegeta just hit him in the back of the head hard enough to knock him out.

[Guest Deranged Gerbil]

the fight between ssj2 gokou and ssj2 vegeta ended in a draw, gokou was left laying because when he had his back turn to get a bean, vegeta knocked him out from behind

I do agree about vegeta beating gokou in their first battle though

yes, gokou could have gone ssj3, but he did not want to do this since it drained so much of his energy, shortening the time he has on earth greatly, in fact, after fighting buu as an ssj3, what should have been 16 hours until he returns to heaven, became something like 30 minutes, this is because of all the energy ssj3 drains out of the user

[kakkarot ssj4]

keep in mind it just wasnt training that helped goku and vegeta their power...it was also saiy-jins ability to become more powerful after an exausting fight or living or coming back from a fatal blow...


goku's power would of multiplied on king kai's planet..
1. king kai's training
2. 10 times gravity
3. his power increased when he came back from the dead..


if gohan was pure saiy-jin...then when he was born he would of been an elite cause of his high power level as a baby...

and vegeta during the 7 years before the buu saga wasnt even close to catching goku in power...it was babidi who made his power jump to ssj2...and still goku could of gone ssj3...

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kakkarot ssj4 [/i]
[B]goku's power would of multiplied on king kai's planet..
1. king kai's training
2. 10 times gravity
3. his power increased when he came back from the dead..[/B][/quote][color=indigo]His power would not have increased after coming back from the dead. Keep in mind that when he died he was allowed to keep his body. He had already healed from his wound of Piccolo's makankosappo, so his body could heal no more after being wished back. Being dead is not a wound, it is merely a state of being.[/color]
[quote][b]if gohan was pure saiy-jin...then when he was born he would of been an elite cause of his high power level as a baby...[/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]Gohan didn't know how to control his power as a baby, he would have been placed far below the elite class. His power would probably have been less than Kakarot's, regardless having the power in his genes. If you don't know how to use it, yuo're pretty much worthless.[/color]

[LittleFluteSan]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]His power would not have increased after coming back from the dead. Keep in mind that when he died he was allowed to keep his body. He had already healed from his wound of Piccolo's makankosappo, so his body could heal no more after being wished back. Being dead is not a wound, it is merely a state of being.[/color][/B][/QUOTE]

Which kind of makes you wonder... during the fight with Freeza, recovering from near death to increase your power level was a hot topic of discussion, even a battle strategy of Vegeta's at one point... but later on in DBZ, that fact is completely ignored. When Vegeta recovered from his fight with 18, he should have been stronger many times over, and should have been able to fight her again and win, theoretically. And when he was AGAIN defeated by Cell, he was healed and should have been even stronger still. I guess you have to overlook continuity errors like that sometimes...

[Desiivy]

Well,
I went out and got the movie, "Bardock Father of Goku"
and pretty much all my questions were answered for now
I also have been watching the old shows replaying on CN
and the stories conflict, I mean what happened in regards to
Bardock. and nothing is said about Raditz.

But regardless, I LOVED this movie, it makes a few things more clear, I adored seeing Vegeta as a kid, that just cracked me up.
I love pretty much love everything that's even remotely Vegeta related.

[QUOTE]if gohan was pure saiy-jin...then when he was born he would of been an elite cause of his high power level as a baby...[/QUOTE]

**


[QUOTE]Gohan didn't know how to control his power as a baby, he would have been placed far below the elite class. His power would probably have been less than Kakarot's, regardless having the power in his genes. If you don't know how to use it, yuo're pretty much worthless[/QUOTE]

This is something I was wondering too!! Because someone said that The boys were high powers, at birth because their fathers were, and I didn't understand the really differences between, that until I saw the movie as well as read all theses post.

Trying to explain to a 6 year old boy,
why Gohan, has the potential to be the strongest but isn't necessary the strongest. I get confused as well. this would be why I come here and ask so many minor questions.


Thanks again so very very much. Desirae

[shibatku]

Which Ghan aare you talking about the Gohan~the original or Gohan Goku's son? If its the orginal yes hes probaly would be condiered the elite class, but being a baby he wouldn't have brains to figure it out so its like having a car, but no keys. OR if your talking about Goku's son then well hes not full saiyan and he wouldn't be considered elite. Mixed blood changes everything.

[Guest Shift]

Hey shiba but..umm I'm sorry to tell you but the original as you say it,(otherwise known as Grandpa Gohan) was not of the Saiyan race, he was human.

[Chaos]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Deranged Gerbil [/i]
[B]the fight between ssj2 gokou and ssj2 vegeta ended in a draw, gokou was left laying because when he had his back turn to get a bean, vegeta knocked him out from behind
[/B][/QUOTE]


Vegeta won that fight. No doubt about it. At the rate they were goin at it, Vegeta would've whooped Kakarot's ***.



[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Deranged Gerbil [/i]
[B]yes, gokou could have gone ssj3, but he did not want to do this since it drained so much of his energy, shortening the time he has on earth greatly, in fact, after fighting buu as an ssj3, what should have been 16 hours until he returns to heaven, became something like 30 minutes, this is because of all the energy ssj3 drains out of the user [/B][/QUOTE]


No, he didn't want to go SSJ3 because he didn't want Vegeta to see that he had been surpassed once again. Plus, it doesn't matter if he uses up energy--HE'S DEAD! He was guarenteed a full twenty-four hours on Earth. Besides, he was completely out of energy when Vegeta beat the skirt offa him. Thus, if the show followed your newbie point of view, Kakarot would've returned to the Other Dimension.

But did he? NO. Idiot...


Also, I'm sorry if you get offended easily, but I'm in a very bad mood.

[Charles]

Well, actually Neil, I believe that Gokou didn't go Super Saiya-jin 3 during the fight because he wanted to enjoy the thrill of fighting an evenly matched warrior.

Furthermore, he didn't want to transform unless he absolutely had to. Remember, he even stated this before actually transforming before Majin Buu. Gokou knew that transforming would take away his time left on Earth.

No one actually won the fight though. It was a draw. Vegeta knocked Gokou out after the fight was over.

[Guest Altron Gundam]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SuperSayian [/i]
[B]


Vegeta won that fight. No doubt about it. At the rate they were goin at it, Vegeta would've whooped Kakarot's ***.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Uhh...SuperSaiyan, no, that's completely wrong..

He held back SSJ3. With SSJ3 he would've easily beaten Vejita.

Gokou had more time training in SSJ2, there is a good reason Vejita needed to trick Gokou to knock him out. Gokou was the stronger SSJ2, no doubt about it. Gokou held back a lot of strength.

[LittleFluteSan]

And as much as I hate to argue with a moderator, SuperSaiyan, your colleagues present good points...

Vegeta did NOT beat Goku in any way, shape, or form. They were evenly matched as SSJ2's, but I think Goku had the definite advantage over Vegeta in that fight. He'd been SSJ2 longer, trained harder, and had 7 years in otherworld fighting people tougher than Vegeta (like Pikkon, who was able to beat Cell with ease, something Vegeta probably wouldn't have been able to do until Babidi took him over.) Training with strong people makes YOU stronger.

The other point you made about Goku going SSJ3 not having an effect on his time on earth... King Kai and Baba both made mention of his time on earth being shortened due to his SSJ3 transformation. Theoretically, at the time he left, he still should have had like 10 hours of time, but because of the transformation, Baba told him it was shortened to 30 minutes.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LittleFluteSan [/i]
[B]And as much as I hate to argue with a moderator, SuperSaiyan, your colleagues present good points...
[/B][/QUOTE]

lol, I hate that attitude. Please don't look at me like that at least. I'm just like you guys, not some all-knowing God. Staff isn't here for the purpose of bullying people into agreeing with everything they believe. I know you said SuperSayian, but colleagues includes me. ;)

Anyway, I'm still going with the consensus that they were equal with one another. Although Gokou had trained as a SSJ2 for a long period of time, Vegeta's strength was enhanced with magic. Unlike Super Saiya-jin level 3, this form isn't a far stretch to master. Essentially, it's just like Super Saiya-jin level 1, but with increased speed and strength.

We could debate up and down over who was stronger, but the fact is that Gokou mentioned himself, that he and Vegeta were equal in strength at Super Saiya-jin 2. Well, that and the [I]fact [/I]that in the subs, themselves, he told Vegeta that he would use his full Super Saiya-jin 2 power in the fight to finish him off quickly. Vegeta specifically mocked Gokou later on in the battle for not finishing the fight quickly, as he had promised to do.

[Justin]

If you ask me, Vejita and Gokou were perfectly equal in SSJ2 form. Why? Because it sounds more dramatic than saying one was more powerful than the other.

But Vejita is, and will always remain, cooler than Gokou. ;)

-Justin