Axis of evil? what is he thinking?

[Guest Matt]

[color=red][b]I agree with what Delian says. Killing civilians, [i]women[/i], [i]children[/i], is horrible no matter if we are at war or not. I too saw the video of the boy being killed. It is truly horrible the atrocites that the human race has brought apon ourselves.

And to what Justin said, the Palistinians can't creat an army. The Isreali army is one of the largest and most powerful in the world. The Palisinians would have no chance with an army of their own.[/b][/color]

[Kent]

yea but if the palistinians would atleast try and use an army and not stuff like hamas martors brigade; they would be able to draw international support from people other than those who hate jews. if they would just stand up in the old fashion way, yes, they might get cut down, but cause of their tactics the rest of the world would have to stop whinning about terror and start acknowledging the "occupation" and start helping with their cause. unfortunatly they are all just like arafat. cowards.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Amphion [/i]
[B]

Your the narrow minded one my freind. You insult me over an opinion I stated. I did not see this Video you speak of. But innocent people die in WAR. You a fool if you think otherwise. But there is a difference between the normal civilian deaths in a WAR and massacres. I was simply stating that your trying to say Israel is massecreing people when you have no proof. One boy getting shot in the head, and it was probably unintentional, is not massecreing people. Therefore, you dont have proof so you are wrong. You dont know everything. Just cause you watch all the news channels still doesnt mean you know everything. You dont know everything unless you experience everything. All the news that you see is going to favor one side. So some of the stuff you see your not goin to know the full story on. So shut up. Your just making your self look dumb. I dont like you so please do not talk to me again.

Its like no one cares what is happening to the Israeli's. They only care about the Palestinians rights. Thats fine, but your putting everything off the Israeli's are going though.

I never said that WAR is great. But it is true that sometimes WAR is the only answer.

And just becaus ethe Palestinians wont organize any kind of army to fight Israel, doesnt justify in killing innocent people day after day.

What did this all start over anyway? Their would be no raids if they would stop blowing up. Israel is not thier land anyway. Like I said in another post. Anybody who knows there history, klnows that the Jews where run out of Israel by the Romans. Afterwards the Palestinians moved in. So the Palestinians have no right to claim it as rightfully theirs. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Hmmm...I have to disagree with your post. Why innocent people do die in war, a soldier should fight other soldiers, not civilians. I feel that is the main reason that this war continues, and why no compromises have been reached is because of the attacks from both sides on civilians.

My first example is of an Israeli soldier shooting a thirteen year old girl three times in the stomach, killing her, because she threw a stone at him. Why her attack was unprovoked (by the soldier) the soldier could have chosen a thousand more actions that would have ben infinitly more appropriate (as well as compasionate and humane). The officer was discharged from the army, but was not imprisioned or otherwise punished.

My second example is of a young Palestinian man that drove a car into a gasoline pump. He killed six people, including a pregnant woman. None of the people that were injured or killed served in the Israeli armed forces.

Another falicy that you have is assuming that the Isreali people have the right to control the government the way they see fit. I'll give you an example of what this would equate to in America. The Cherokee Indians were known inhabitants of the Southern East Coast. Before the colonization of North America, there were Cherokees that inhabit what is now Washington DC. What if the United Nations gave Washington DC to the remaining Cherokee Indians. They would have the ability to run the city a they see fit (I am refering to Washington like it would be any other large city, not as the capital of the US), even though they do not represent the majority, they would have the power to govern the general populace. Would that be fair to the existing Washintonians? No. They had no part in causing the suffering of the Cherokees. But why shouldn't the Cherokees get that land back. They were unwillingly forced off of it.

Why this might not be the best analogy, I think it gets the point across. Both sides have a justifiable reason to be there, however, that doesn't mean that they have earned the right to be there. Both the Palestinians and the Israelis have to come together and compromise as a whole before things will ever get better.[/color]

[James]

[color=royalblue]It's nice to talk about something within the safety of your own country -- it's just not realistic for the Palestineans to use a military force against Israel.

If Israel didn't want to be attacked by suicide bombers, they [i]should never[/i] have started occupying/conquering land which was not theirs.

Now, I'm not favoring either side -- but the only way to solve the problem is to be [i]realistic[/i]. Both sides are equally at fault here. If Israel wanted to stop the bombings, they would simply have to remove all of their settlements and withdraw to the original 1967 borders.

If they really cared about their people's lives, you'd think that they'd make that simple concession. It's ridiculous to think that you can occupy another people's land and face no consequence.

Imagine if the USA started building its own towns and cities in Canada. Do you really think Canada would just sit there and do nothing?

I mean, maybe that's the best way to understand the situation -- to consider how it would be if two other countries were involved.

It annoys me that a lot of Arab media is so pro-Palestinean and a lot of American media is so pro-Israel. It annoys me because [i]nobody[/i] is looking at the situation for what it really is. Both sides are acting foolish -- the Palestineans are frequently shooting themselves in the foot by bombing and the Israelis are doing nothing but being bratty and arrogant.

But I suppose that is to be expected when you have two incredibly stupid leaders running both sides.[/color]

[Juu]

yeah, good point james.
but the thing that I think that bush is doing wrong is that he is completely listening to his lil team as if god came down and told him to. Is he just doing exactly what they're saying or is he making some choises of his own?

[Amphion]

Hey, Im sorry but it seems as though I may have come across as trying to say that innocent peoples deaths are okay in some situations. I did NOT mean that and I want to clear that up. All I meant was that it happens in war sometimes. It shouldnt but does. American Soldiers did it and so have Japanese, Germans, Israeli, and more. But as we say about a specific race or religion, one person does not reflect the views of the whole.

I just think that if the palestinians would stop the suicide bombings, Israel would be willing to negotiate with them. But then also, if Israel would back out of Pal. territory they would be willing to negotiate. But if one side is not willing to do that, all that will result is a continuation of this war. I am still for the creation of a Palestinian state. Every race of people deserves a land they can call their own.

And Delian I apologize to you. I think we both misunderstood each others posts.

[James]

[color=royalblue]Much better, Amphion. :)

I think that once we start to recognize that (in this situation) both sides are at fault...then and only then can we start talking about how to find a solution.

Clearly, it's going to take some huge and courageous compromise on both sides to achieve something useful here.[/color]

[GotenksSSJ343]

Yeah compromising is always the better alternative just that [i]some[/i] people around the world have to figure it out the hard way or just go to war lose alot of people when you can just make a simple non bloody killing deal/compromise except in WW2.

[Amphion]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]Much better, Amphion. :)

I think that once we start to recognize that (in this situation) both sides are at fault...then and only then can we start talking about how to find a solution.

Clearly, it's going to take some huge and courageous compromise on both sides to achieve something useful here.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks James. I am sorry, sometimes I get too angry over someone having a dfifferent opinion, then I end up saying stupid things. I am getting better about it though.

What do you guys think about creating a Palestinian state? Do you think that would stop this nonsense?

[Guest Matt]

[color=red][b]I think that if a Palistinian state was created who's borders both the Israeli's and Palistinian's agreed on, then it would be good. But if not, it would just cause more conflict.[/b][/color]

[Kent]

now if the people we are talking about could act like that. (the above postings between james and ampion) we all would get along. but for now i dont think any of us can do anything.
my problem is that the key to the comprimises you all are talking about is (paying attention to the immediate) stopping the suicide bombings. or homicide bombings.
i hope that a palestinian state can happen, but if you ask me; i think they should have to tough it out showing their intent for peace for another couple of years. i mean come on. what about my people. not the americans. the irish. we quit fighting long ago and that imperialistic kingdom of britian is still holding on to us. i woulnt get too bad because i am an american; but my facial hair is redish orange and my mothers maiden name is doyle.
free ireland now. free palestine in 5 minutes. just kidding. i care for the palestinians but i also care for my celtic friends.

[Delian]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Amphion [/i]
[B]And Delian I apologize to you. I think we both misunderstood each others posts. [/B][/QUOTE]

Apologies run both ways.

Thankyou

[Juu]

in the situation we are in right now...... I'm 99.9% sure that this will start some sort of war. Then, I'm 50.9% sure that it could be a new world war.

[Kent]

i would just about say there is love in the air.
does any one want to sit down for negotiations?
i also (on a serious note, even a strategic one) want to ask
if isreal was to give up a palistinian state and let the muslims have both of the disputed territories (west bank and the north east area i dont remember the name of) wouldnt that leave them with 2 different "fronts" to defend?
history people (few and far between it seems) know that one big bright shining reason hitler lost his war is because he made a 2 front war. its just not smart to let your enemy surround you.

[Amphion]

Well, Hitlers 2 fronts where a lot larger and he was facing more then one Country from both sides. So I dont think the total concept of the "2 front" deal would not apply here. But, If Pa. was able to muster up a suffecient army, it could pose some what of a problem.

I think if they where to create a state they would have to change the things up a bit. do away with either the Gaza strip or the west bank and swap people around. Im not saying cram all the Pa. into the west bank, but swap some Israeli territory for the Gaza strip. You know what I mean?

But yeah, like Juuthena said. This mideast deal involves way to many people. Thats why I am afraid if all out war breaks out several countries will get drawn in as well. Then it will probably turn into a ji'had for the muslims drawing in even more muslim nations. We are looking at something that does have a chance, even if its a slight one, of turning into something very bad.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Amphion [/i]
[B]What do you guys think about creating a Palestinian state? Do you think that would stop this nonsense? [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]I think that creating a Palestinian state is an easy way out, and would only cause slight, temporary relife. I think that by creating two seperate countries, Palestine and Israel will end up having the same troubles that India and Pakistan has.

I feel that the only true way to resolve this conflict is for both group to force themselves to live amngst one another.[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud [/i]
[B]

[color=indigo]

I feel that the only true way to resolve this conflict is for both group to force themselves to live amngst one another.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]That would only make things a lot worse. You'd have a neverending bloodbath if that were the case.

Already, there are Israeli settlements in Palestinean areas...and already you have huge levels of violence.

The best thing to do is to give the Palestineans their own state which they themselves can run and control; with their own laws, government, police etc etc.

They don't [i]want[/i] to live under Israel. The only solution is to give them a seperate state. Once that is done, the violence will drop [i]very[/i] sharply. Especially once you really seperate the two entities.[/color]

[Justin]

Well, you also have to look at it from Isreal's point-of-view.

I'll give the best comparison I know: The American Civil War. The CSA wanted to be a separate state from the USA. Guess what; the USA wouldn't give it's lands up.

So, why should Isreal want to give THEIRS up?

Of course, I know there was far more to the American Civil War than that, but it'll suffice for my purposes.

-Justin

[Amphion]

Yeah there was more to it but you are right. I think thats one of the main things holding them back right now. Israel does not want to give up its lands. No country really wants to. But Sharon needs to consider whats best for both sides people. In this case it would probably be a seperate state.

[Justin]

Where would the world be if Lincoln had said that?

Again, I'm not trying to start anything. I'm just trying to disect everything as deeply as possible.

-Justin

[Delian]

You have to acknowledge that Israel was Palestine at one point in time. They both have to come to some sort of compromise and sacrifices have to be made, including land disputes, in order for a peaceful existence among both nations.

[James]

[color=royalblue]Exactly.

Israelis are not native to the land which they currently occupy -- the land [i]was[/i] originally Palestine.

So, Israel is effectively the "invading force" here. They should quit building new settlements -- it's like rubbing salt into an open wound. They need to define their border and [i]leave it at that[/i]. No more of this settlement crap.

If they did that, they could leave the rest of the land for the Palestineans...and it would be much calmer than it is now.[/color]

[Justin]

But the question is: Since the land was originally Palestine, should the Palestinians have to settle for whatever the Isrealis decide to give them?

Realistically, yes. Palestine can't truly fight Isreal in a war and have any hope to win, but is it really fair?

-Justin

[Juu]

question one: yes it'd be stupid for them to try to disagree with isreal because they absolutely cannot win if they had a war. But no, I don't think it's really fair.

Question two: erm... who does the land really belong to?? I have no clue.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[quote][color=blue]They don't want to live under Israel. [/color][/quote]

[color=indigo] They shouldn't have to live under Isreal, but they should try to live together and create a government that works for both of them. Why this may be next to impossible, I don't think the conflict will ever cease unless they can "integrate" with each other.

Why this seems like a naive view, the problems that have developed between Pakistan and India (which are not that different) should serve as an example to Israel and Palestine as to why seperaton is not always good.
[/color]