Mnemolth's Misguided Guide to Girls

[Mnemolth]

STOP! IF YOU WANT TO READ THIS THEN AS I'VE TAKEN THE TIME TO WRITE THIS UP, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO BE COURTEOUS ENOUGH TO TAKE THE TIME TO READ ALL OF IT BEFORE COMMENTING. THANKS! :)

For my first post, I thought I'd pick something dear to all our hearts. Its a bit on the long side, so I'm going to have to split it into two posts. Enjoy! ;)

[b]Mnemolth's Misguided Guide to Girls[/b]

Let me first make a few disclaimers so that you may read what follows in the light in which it was written.

1) Never take what I say or post seriously. Yet behind every jibe and every jest there must be some truth. It wouldn't be funny otherwise. :devil:

2) I don't claim to know anything about anything. Interprete that as you will :devil:

3) Everyone wants to be special, and yet people, as a whole, are not all that 'special'. Otherwise, we would not have what is often referred to as the mass mentality, now would we? Even so, even though people are generally not all that complicated, it should be fairly obvious to all that there are no general hard and fast rules when people are concerned. Or at least very very few such rules. People are not machines. The laws governing matters of the heart are not like the laws governing the motions of the universe. If they were, it'd be a very dull world indeed. :devil: With this in mind, the comments which follows are for the ears of the peer group 18-24, and generally literate and educated.


[i]Girls are girls.[/i]

Girls, almost invariably, at some time or other want to be girls and wish to be treated as such. Yes, even the tomboys. They want to occasionally put on a beautiful dress, and have all the boys ogle at her. Maybe not all the time, maybe not even the majority of the time, this will all depend on the girl, but for all girls, certainly some times! Everyone wants to be beautiful, and every girl wants to be a princess at one time or another.

Girls often complain that they're not given equal treatment to men. And that's true for the most part. But being equal DOES NOT mean being the same. So what does this mean? A little chauvinism goes a long way. :) If you do it with style and panache, if you do it in a way that's not too obvious, that doesn't embarass them too much, then yes, opening the door for a girl, paying for dinner, those old values still have resonance even in this day and age. Nevertheless, I can not emphasise enough, you have to do it WELL. If you're fumbling with the door handle, if you are going to pay for dinner with a whole bag of coins, then no that's probably not a good idea. If need be, practice before you go 'live'. ;) Always remember the old adage, its not what you do, its how you do it.


Some girls will tell you that they care nothing for a man's wealth, his career, or his appearance. Its what's inside that counts. Well, don't you believe it! Now please don't tell me you buy in on all that? No?? Good! :D Girls are like guys. They want what they want.

Its true that girls are less likely to place as much emphasise on looks as guys. Now come off it dudes. Don't deny it! I'm one of you guys, I know what you think, and I know what you're thinking it with! ;) But before you butt ugly and lazy bums start nodding sagely and sink comfortably into your sofas, get up and do some exercises! Put on that moisturiser! Use that pimple cream! Because, at the end of the day, although looks may not weigh as heavily with girls as guys, its still a factor. And if you don't have much else going for you, its probably one of those things that may open the door slightly for you. You may not need to be beautiful, but you sure as hell need to be presentable.

Now, if you're not the most handsome man in the room you may start thinking that since girls don't place such a high emphasise on looks, you may have a chance after all. Think again! :devil: What girls may be able to compromise in terms of looks they demand more in terms of wealth and security. If you're not rich, that's fine, are you cool? If you are rich it does NOT automatically make you a chick magnet. Far from it, but it does give you a little leg up in the sense you can always make things easier for the girl, and that's always a plus. If you're a pauper, even if you KNOW what to buy her for a present, you probably won't have the money to buy it. On the other hand, since necessity is the mother of inventions, if you are poor, you are less likely to be as arrogant, as ignorant (street wise), or generally as much an *** as a rich guy. Or not. :devil:

This brings us to the interesting concept of a 'personality'. Can I just make a comment here to all those angst-ridden late teens sitting in the corners of class rooms striking their James Dean poses, fully accessorised with soulful gazes in the air; if you ain't got it, you ain't got it, so quit it! Sheesh! :)

Not that 'brooders' are not cool, and major chick magnets. They are. But you've got to have 'it' and frankly, very few guys have 'it'. IT is a combination of looks and attitude. You need BOTH. There is nothing more lame than a four-eyed geek trying to look cool in a pose designed for another body and another mind. Hmm...if you don't understand the James Dean reference maybe a present one would suffice. Let's just say if you're not Angel (as in from Buffy: The Vampire Slayer), then you're not Angel, so don't try to be what you're not. This is no moral tale with the droning mantra of 'just be yourself', its just common sense. If you can pull it off, great! Go for it! If you haven't a chance in hell, then be smart, try something else! :p

Its fantastic how in all those teen movies, the dweeb, the guy who doesn't try to impress gets the girl because she sees how beautiful he is on the inside. She may ignore him at the beginning, but she comes around at the end. Er...*coughs*...need I remind you all that that's just a movie? Fiction folks! You try it, and if it works for you, all the best but if it just leaves you butt naked with your dick swinging in the breeze, don't come crying to me. :)

In the 'personality' stakes there are a many things that girls are attracted to and many they avoid like the plague. And to further complicate matters, what's an attractive trait to one girl can be annoying as hell to another. There's really not enough time here to cover everything, so I'll stick with the basics, stuff generally the OVERWHELMING majority of girls agree on. It comes down to three simple things. Confidence, humour and vulnerability.

Let's take the first one because its probably the one everyone knows but many people just cannot execute properly. There are varying degrees of confidence. Some girls like their guys to be 'the man', to lead and to be in charge, to know and to be sure of himself. Then there are girls who would like their guys to be aware of their environment, and clued in, and not blunder about and be too embarassing to show to her friends. Finally, there are girls who would just like their guys to be comfortable with themselves, or at least comfortable enough that they don't need to spend ALL of their time dealing with the guy's many insecure neuroses. I mean who needs that kinda crap, right? :devil:

Being confident is all about attitude. Its not easy but neither is it rocket science. Its all about the projection of image. Remember this, if you're interested in a girl and she doesn't know you, you have to get close enough to her so that she comes to know you. If the image you project turns her away, she will never know you. And you will never know whether she would have been interested if she got to know you or not, because she never did. I know the previous sentence is a little convoluted but you get the drift. Let me put it another way. If you want a girl to fall for you for your 'inner beauty', well, how is she even going to see your 'inner beauty' if she doesn't know you well enough, or in the worse case, not at all?? Its all well and fine to sit in the corner of the classroom waiting patiently for some nice girl to notice your 'inner beauty' but it ain't gonna happen dude. You'll be sitting there a long long time as the world passes you by, and you'll be sitting by yourself.

Sometimes its difficult to be confident because girls give you such mixed signals. Here's a very very simple illustration. Let's say you have a date, and you're about to see a movie but what movie it is has yet to be decided. So you're discussing this matter in front of the box office. Its a good idea to ask her what she wants to watch. Its not only courteous, it also indicates that you value her input, and that's always nice. :) Now, if, as happens a lot of the time, she says she doesn't know and is musing over it, then here comes the tricky part. First, I'd just like to say if you are nervous or unsure of yourself, you need to do some preparation before the date. It wouldn't kill you to know which movies are available and which ones someone like her would like to watch. As the proverb goes, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail. Anyway, as she is musing over the choices, its your chance to display your confidence, and make a couple of suggestions. A COUPLE, not a hundred or a thousand. The purpose is not to confound or confuse but to direct and to guide. Date movies are pretty easy to pick, you're usually on safe ground with 'chick flicks'. For those closer to their mid twenties than their late teens, something probably in the genre of 'Sliding Doors' or 'Serendipity' ; for vice versa, you may want to try stuff like 'Shrek' (its not 'technically' a 'chick flick', but good enough and close enough) or 'Final Fintasy' (only for KNOWN anime fans, don't try pulling some poor girl who doesn't know anything about anime or CG into this one, unless of course you want make the date harder than it needs to be :p). The point is to take some kind of charge, to be 'the man' as it were, to lead WHEN an opportunity presents itself. You have to read the girl and see what it is that she wants. There's no point asking her because half the time she isn't going to tell, she just 'expects' you to know. And besides, sometimes she doesn't know herself.

You have to make a judgement and go with it. If you're wrong, then bad luck, but usually a single mistake isn't gonna totally kill your chances. And if it is then there are always plenty of other fish in the sea. The important thing is to not be paralyzed by fear, not to be so afraid as to second guess every move you make, and of course ending up making no moves at all. Girls do not like indecision in a guy, regardless of what they say. I mean, put yourself in their shoes. Here you're out with this guy, and he's asking you where to go to dinner, you say 'anything', and ask him where he would like to go, and he replies 'anything'??!! For God's sake make up your freaking mind! :)

On the other hand, if the girl says that she doesn't really like a particular movie, then leave her alone. Don't impose your will on her, especially not for a first date. Maybe later when you know her a lot better you can debate such issues. I don't care if every review has said the movie is a masterpiece, I don't care if you think you're so hot and persuasive that you can convince anyone. Drop it. Respect her, and in return she will respect you.

A little tip here. Girls these days can sometimes be very strong minded, or 'independent'. And that's all well and good. And they might say they like a Sensitive New Age Guy (SNAG). And that's kinda true. But don't fall into the trap in thinking they would be attracted to SNAGs. As much as they would protest to the contrary, invariably girls like to be treated as girls, as long as its done with good humour and charm. Boys will be boys, and girls, well, girls WILL be girls so don't let anyone fool you otherwise. A girl looks to a man for strength and security. If she wanted all of that emotional support, and NOTHING MORE, she'd date one of her girlfriends! :devil: Yes, a bumbling dweeb can be cute sometimes to some girls, but the odds are really against you, firstly in finding such a girl, and secondly in not annoying the hell out of her within a couple of months!! Although its highly politically incorrect to say this, yet it remains true that girls love SNAGs ONLY as an ideal, not as a reality.

The second trait to discuss is 'humour'. You've got to have this. I cannot overstress how important this is. You gotta make the girl laugh, or smile at least. The trick here is not to be a klown and have her laugh AT you, but to have a sense of humour, and have her laugh WITH you. Its a great ice-breaker, and a fantastic conversational lubricant. And for Pete's sake don't take yourself too seriously, life's too short. At the same time, remember, your not a comedian, so please don't make a joke of everything, especially stuff to do with emotions and relationships. For some strange reason girls tend to take that kinda talk seriously. I wonder why... :devil: As with everything else, its a balance. :)

There's not much I can say about a sense of humour. Almost everyone has it, it just needs to be developed a little in some. The only thing I can say is please PLEASE, whatever you do DO NOT try to save a joke. If you little snide comment or witty jibe falls flat on its face. LEAVE IT! Its dead! Kaput! Done for. History! I don't know how many times I've seen poor sods trying desparately to salvage something from their debacle! It ain't gonna happen dude! The best that can be done is to have it ignored. Either it was the wrong joke or you were with the wrong crowd, either way, you can't rescue it so DON'T TRY!! There's nothing more lame than someone repeating their joke a dozen times hoping that someone will eventually get it, and then trying to explain it. My skin crawls just thinking about it. Eeewww...

Most of the time humour doesn't come from direct jokes, but just comments, and looks, and gestures, and all those other forms of interaction. A lot of a good sense of humour is derived from one's personal confidence. Its not such a stretch to say that those who oozes self-confidence, the self-assured good kind, not the arrogant cocky bad kind, its not a stretch to say that they can make a girl smile at whim. Its does not always have to be funny 'funny', it can just be warm and pleasant. So first, get your confidence up, then you sense of humour should improve. ;)

[Mnemolth]

All this time I've been talking about how boys need to be 'manly' and confident, and you'd be forgiven for thinking this means that you always have to be the 'on show', that you can't relax, that you can't show any weakness, any vulnerabilities. Wrong! Dead wrong actually! Quite the opposite. The confidence and the sense of humour will get you close to a girl, but its the vulnerability that seals the deal! Its the clincher! Without it, the girl cannot trust you, and without trust there cannot be any love. You see, its all in the delivery... :devil: You have to show them that you're not perfect, and thus that you are 'real'. It gives them something to hang their 'nurture' hat on. It allows them to believe that you need them. Girls are great suckers for 'vulnerabilities'. Remember, even Superman had his Clarke Kent. Just don't forget that Lois Lane would not even take a second look at Clarke Kent if he were not Superman, but the two being the one and the same, that's what makes it work. :) There's nothing a girl likes more than to be the only one to be able to see the 'true' you. Its a home run in the 9th innings with the bases loaded. :D

Oops!! gah!! *checks watch* Looks like I'm running out of time. I need to wrap up this quickly. Sorry folks, maybe I'll skip somethings but you'll forgive me, right? ;)

I'll make a few quick points about relationships.

EXs: Its often been said that there have been great strides in feminism and that now girls are treated more or less the same as guys. Nuh Uh! As a general it still remains true that a guy is allowed to have a number of EXs and still not be regarded as having been around the blocks too many times. Girls, on the other hand have much less choice. They can probably get away with one or two EXs before it becomes a barrier. For guys though, 1 or 2 EXs is the norm actually by the time you reach your 20s. So if you're in your early 20s and you've never had a girlfriend, it actually becomes a negative rather than a positive. The question then becomes, what's wrong with you? On the other hand, if you're a girl and you've NEVER had a boyfriend by the time you're 20, its actually a positive. It doesn't reflect too badly for you.

Periods: every girl has them, and its not something they like openly talking to guys about so we're usually in the dark about these things, until they come up and bite us in the proverbial rear end. :) Periods are nothing to be fearful of, and in fact, you can win some easy brownie points if you play it right. :devil: The thing to understand about periods is that they affect different girls differently. Some girls have them as regularly as clock work, others are infamously irregular, some are crippling in their agony, others are so minor that many girls don't even both with medicine. It all depends on the girl. Similarly, how you treat her during this time should depend on the girl as well. Some girls get rather clingy during this time of the month, others just get cranky. Offer to be around and help, but don't insist. If she wants to be alone during this time, she wants to be alone. Let it be! On the other hand, some girls rather like company and support although they are not going to ask for it. Hence you need to offer. If you offer and she declines, well you've not only shown her that you care, but that you are sensitive enough, have enough respect for her, and sufficiently well-adjusted to let her be instead of pestering her all the time. If she takes you up on the offer, all the better. Be prepared for a level of moodiness but you're already in the good books by sticking around so you're a step ahead anyways. Either way, you win. :)

What?? You don't know what periods are besides the dots at the end of sentences?? Hmm....then its probably best if you ignore the above paragraph. Hmm....actually ignore this entire post altogether. :)

Girls on pedestals: the mistake of practically every juvenile love. :) Putting girls on pedestals is great, and can come across as extremely sweet to the girl during the initial stages of courting, but alas it gets old REAL fast! Girls are living breathing human beings with blood flowing through their veins, they're not some inanimate trophy you hang on the wall and admire from a distance. They have needs, and you have to attend to them if you want to keep them around. Its pretty simple. Love the girl not your idea of a girl. Its a terrible thing to ask someone to live up to an ideal. It just doesn't work that way. Besides, love is about intimacy, and you can't really be intimate with an idea now can you?? ;)

Okay, that's it for now. Yes, I know its been a very long post. What? You didn't expect a guide to girls to be short did you?? ;)

Everything said about should be taken in context. There are no hard and fast rules. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. So keep your eyes open and your wits about you and you'll find that girls aren't aliens from another planet after all. That's just what they want all us guys to think so they can confuse the hell out of us and have their way. :)

Oh yes, I almost forgot the most important rule of all. And it is a rule almost regardless of the context. Probably the only one that applies to almost all girls in almost all situations. Like most people, girls HATE know-it-alls. You know the type. People who think they know everything and are not shy to tell you as much. Arrogant and cocky and presumptious. No one likes them. It doesn't matter what topic you're on about or what subject is being discussed, they seem to have an answer for everything. You just sit there and listen to them, but you're not really hearing them, because what you're really looking for is an opportunity to prove them wrong. So you're really scouring for errors. :) And it feels great when you can catch them out!

So one thing you NEVER EVER do, under ANY circumstances, is to pretend to know everything. Especially to let out that you know about THEM. Girls guard their secrets jealously. I mean, how would you like it if someone came up to you and told you they could read you like a big print book? No one likes that. So even if you THINK you know stuff, keep your mouth shut. At the end of the day, if you're wrong, no one would be the wiser. And if you're right, well then you've got an edge over everyone else right? Either way you win. On the other hand, if you open your big fat mouth and chatter away like some runaway train, then everyone would be trying their best to catch you out and derail you. If you're wrong, you'll have egg all over your face and be exposed for the chump that you are. On the other hand, if you're right, well, people would just resent you even more. Either way, you lose.

So, the lesson is if you're even remotely interested in anyone on these Boards, even potentially remotely interested in any girl on these Boards, don't make the mistake of making a post like mine. Nothing turns her a girl off more than a know-it-all. :devil: :devil: :devil:

[Transtic Nerve]

Oh my jesus.... no one in their right mind would read that.... I know I'm not... part in because I don't have much to worry about girls... lol.

[MysticGohan]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]Oh my jesus.... no one in their right mind would read that.. [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=royalblue]Damn straight! Cliffnotes pal.. cliffnotes...! That's alot of crap you posted.:nono:

- MG[/size][/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo]Oh my, if you expect anyone to read through all of that you are crazy. Sure we all have a lot of time on our hands, but not that much. Not too mention it's kind of sexist. I mean. where's [i]Mnemolth's Misguided Guide to Guys[/i]? Lol. You can't have one without the other.[/color]

[Guest Matt]

[color=red][b]I did read the first few lines....[/b][/color]

[Guest Hikaru Ichijyo]

Did a quick glance at some sentences, basically your stating something that should already be obvious to anyone with a brain in my opinion! Your also stating things that are just generalizations and not based on any facts!

[Guest GriffXL]

man i cant believe you wrote all that.my hands would be sore from typing.

[Valen]

I saw that somewhere before... it's all a bunch of crap... think about it... 3 minutes to write all that? Riiiight...

[Desbreko]

[color=indigo]First off, I actually read all of that... Secondly, does anyone know where I can get a life? I figure that anyone with enough time on their hands to actually read or write all that doesn't have one... :twitch:

But actually, it was kind of funny... :laugh: Like he said, don't take it seriously.[/color]

[Mnemolth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]Oh my, if you expect anyone to read through all of that you are crazy. Sure we all have a lot of time on our hands, but not that much. Not too mention it's kind of sexist. I mean. where's [i]Mnemolth's Misguided Guide to Guys[/i]? Lol. You can't have one without the other.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh I'm sorry. I must have overlooked that. Well here it is. Its a little shorter than the one for girls though. ;)

[b]Mnemolth's Misguided Guide to Guys[/b]

Guys think and feel with their head. No, the other one. :devil:

The End

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]

Oh I'm sorry. I must have overlooked that. Well here it is. Its a little shorter than the one for girls though. ;)

[b]Mnemolth's Misguided Guide to Guys[/b]

Guys think and feel with their head. No, the other one. :devil:

The End [/B][/QUOTE]

You act as if women are much more complicated then men... this prooves you in fact know nothing about men or women. I know guys that are extremely hard to deal with.. and then I know women who are very easy to understand. It's not about a gender... it's about what goes on in your brain... and that is not caused by whether or not you have a penis or a vagina, but your growing up experiences and your family life and all those other influences.

[Stitch]

listen i'm a girl we are not that complicated you however GET A LIFE that was very rude in my opnion i up until 2 days ago never wore a dress and i DID NOT want to wear one so your therey(sp?) has yet to be proved on me if you don't belive that i didn't want to wear a dress ask Aries

2nd thing to the quote i'm a girl we are not that compilcated i will explain a girl 4 you so you don't have to go through all of the crap you posted above

1 a girl wants to be LOVED by her man not used

2 we don't want your fake images be yourself because as in the above sentence being a fake is lying which is in the girls eyes is using her

see very simple and that was not a smart move for your first post you should have used it on something more useful tho i didn't read the whole thing you have very good grammar
~GG~

[Boo]

A bit TOO long. I dont think anyone is going to read it totally.

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]
The second trait to discuss is 'humour'. You've got to have this. I cannot overstress how important this is. You gotta make the girl laugh, or smile at least. The trick here is not to be a klown and have her laugh AT you, but to have a sense of humour, and have her laugh WITH you. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]I semi-read the entire first post, and I must say that it WAS rather funny. The only thing about what I have quoted is that a majority of girls don't like funny guys. What they mean by "He has to be funny, etc..." is that they have to be [i]lighthearted[/i], and able to take a joke.

I personally hate guys who think they're funny, and even if they ARE the 'funny joker type', it's not attractive at all :rolleyes:[/color]

[Shy]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B]

[color=deeppink]I personally hate guys who think they're funny, and even if they ARE the 'funny joker type', it's not attractive at all :rolleyes:[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkblue][size=1]What do you think about shyness, is that attractive? :p

You didn't write this. Or if you did, it was not done specifically for the boards. [i]I[/i] wouldn't waste my time writing something that long, and I can guarantee that someone with three posts wouldn't.

I skimmed through most of it. You try to point out things that have been said a million times in the past, except you try to pass them off as clever and original. Some of it was entertaining, but not all of it was true.[/color][/size]

[Juu]

whoa.... um, I didn't read all that... I sorta skimmed through it myself. COMPLICATED???guys and girls can be both complicated or not, depending on who they are, or what point of view you're taking it from. even though I skimmed through it, 1/2 of the things I read, I stongly disagree

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shyguy [/i]
[B]

[color=darkblue][size=1]What do you think about shyness, is that attractive? :p[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Haha, believe me, [i]many[/i] girls are intrigued by, if not attracted to, shyness ^_^[/color]

[eleanor]

Woah...jeez...that was long. How much free time can you get? I didn't read the whole thing, but I thought the first paragraph was really boring, so I didn't read it. Eh, girls are mean at my school. They're so annoying too, so they're annoying. They call shy guys 'freaks' but I like shy boys. Not the ones who run down the halls screaming about something stupid and supposedly funny.

[Turkey]

I can't believe I read all that...
Anyway, it was quite funny in some parts, and a good way to kill time.

[SSJ Gotenks ok]

Wow way to much to read!!!I get enough females so no need to read.:D Dude what was u on when u decided to type up all that??:laugh:

[bignatedawg]

I must not have a life if I read all of that, but come on, give the guy a little credit, sure no one may agree with what he wrote or even read it at all, but I for one could not type that much. Don't be so hard on the guy, he is new after all.

[Psychotik]

AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Wheres the NEED? My brains overloading, I can't take that much information at once

Reverence-out>>

[sexyjessie4]

I am extremely bored since my best friend is hanging out with my boy tonight (arrr!) so I actually read that whole thing, and as much as other people hated it, I thought it was extremely funny and very very true!! But you did make a mistake in saying that guys aren't complicated, because at the very least, guys are equally as complicated as girls are and they play as many games as girls do. And if you don't believe me, I could think of a ton of examples....but yeah this was entertaining and I liked it! :)

[Mnemolth]

Okay folks, the most common response seems to be what kind of loser would write all that? ;)

So I thought it only fair to answer the question. First of all, as someone might have pointed out, I didn't write it specifically for this Board, though I DID write it. ;)

This little piece of dry dung started out life as an article I wrote for my college, complete with real life examples. It brought the house down when it was published, and everyone had fun. It was quite nasty though, sharp and could be hurtful if read by people who take themselves too seriously. That's not a great danger at university where almost everyone knows life is a bit of a joke, and they know me. But on anonymous internet Boards it could be a bit of a problem, where not everyone is in the same age group or has a similar frame of mind. So I did a major modification and posted it on another anime-related Board I use to frequent. It also brought the house down. Unfortunately, this time I was in the house. ;)

I think without the real life examples with real names of real people everyone knows, the article lost its bite. And because I tried to tone it down, it also lost a lot of its humour.

Anyways, so that's the story. I basically cut a couple of lines out, copy & paste and reposted it on this Board. It took me probably less than a minute? Still, a couple of people did have a good cackle over it and that's nice. :)