Murder in Korea-Who's fault?

[july]

hey, you, in response to the first ever post, everyone is responsible for their own actions and what they do is entirely a choice they made by themselves, just because a person is aggravating you or anyone else, it does not give you or anyone else the right to murder. religious people say 'amen'. now the son chose to murder not only his father but his grandmother too and that's just wrong. there's no one to blame but himself, circumstance has nothing to do with making the right choice. you choose what's right because it is, not because you feel they deserve something... do you feel me?

[Justin]

Now, I disagree with you, Piro.

I say, by saying that it's not his fault that you [i]are[/i](in a way) defending him. Granted, his father was overbearing and he didn't do well in school in a culture where not doing well brings shame not only upon you, but upon your family as well.

However, I still say it was not justified. The boy was old enough to understand his emotions, his actions, and the consequences of the two. I've wanted to kill out of rage before. I think everyone has a time when the [i]want[/i] to. But most people know not to and [i]don't[/i].

Now, I have another comment: There is a difference in 'murder' and 'killing.' If you [i]kill[/i] is self defense, it's not murder. It's killing. There is a moral difference in the two.

But at what point does self defense and retalliation [i]become[/i] murder? That, comrades, is the question I will leave you to ponder.

-Justin

[july]

i don't think that any true self-defense can end in murder, if you are just protecting yourself, you should know when enough is enough and just dig... well, yeah...

[Anna]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Justin[/i]
[b]The boy was old enough to understand his emotions, his actions, and the consequences of the two. I've wanted to kill out of rage before. I think everyone has a time when the want to. But most people know not to and don't[/b][/quote]

Yeah, everyone has their choice and accountability. Piro, I see where you're coming from, I just want you to know that. It's just that there have been [i]plenty[/i] of worse parents out there than that dad, and the kids of those parents don't kill their parents. Sure they may have damage, but it's a part of growing up. I know I have my own scars from my own dad, and I tell you, if my dad were from Korea he would be an EXACT replica of this deceased father. Yeah, it sucks. But I'm not going to kill him, even though I [u]have literally snapped[/u] in front of him..... it was weird, too.... like, even though I was still conscious of the situation, my mind went numb, like it shut off and I just sat there shaking and crying and couldn't see anything in front of me, and I couldn't speak if I wanted to. But I wouldn't have killed him, I couldn't have. I may have buried anger, but I've matured in how to control it. Murdering his dad-AND his grandmother (which I completely forgot about)-in unexcusable. Especially his grandmother! That poor woman..... right there he ought to have stepped back and see what he had done.... his grandmother was probably completely defenseless....

[Justin]

What if you're not given the choice? What if the only way to prevent your own death is to kill your atatcker?

I can provide a scenario: A man breaks into the home of a normal family. The husband is on a business trip, leaving his wife and children(we'll say 2) at home.

The mother wakes up, and hears the intruder downstairs. Her children's room are downstairs, so she goes down, unaware that the intruder is an intruder and not just one of her children scrambling around.

The intruder sees her before she sees him, and attacks her. He's got knife in his hand ready to kill her, and she picks up a sharp object(we'll say they're in the kitchen and she grabbed a knife out off of the cutting board or something) and as the intruder lunges with his knife to stab her, she stabs him. Is that wrong of her?

I think not.

-Justin

[Mist]

[color=red][size=1] I know I sound like some old geezer who yells at you to get off the front lawn every morning, but this case of strict parenting shouldn't have been enough to deserve some of the blame. Maybe the kid was smart, and was just lazy. Would it be so wrong to push him? No, it wouldn't.

Now, this kid goes and drinks his butt off and kills two family members. I can understand how this kids senses were screwed because of the alcolhol, but you can still be responsive to certain stimuli. Just because you were drunk isn't a good enough excuse (for me, anyway.) to not think/ see what you are doing. Therefore, I don't think being drunk is a good excuse.

So, my blame goes to the son.[/color][/size]

[Twinzam v]

when did this happen I never heard of it. I think the son is to blame there is nothing wrong with your dad pushing you for some more work, my dad does that to me and I don't go and kill him this kid must be crazy

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]This just another case of abusive parents. Just on the same level is that dad was a drunk and beat his son. Except it's not phsyical abuse his son was taking, it's verbal, and from his father. A guy who is supposed to encourage a kid and set a good example is talking down to you. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]To me it sounds like a case of a dad who just wants his son to do well but doesn't know how to express that emotion. I get the feeling that while he was disappointed, it was merely because he thought his son was capable of doing better.

The only thing the dad is to blame for is [i]being a parent.[/i][/color]

[Chaos]

The kid snaps, and kills people. His family. Yeah, nothing wrong there. ::Twilight Zone theme plays::

Get off it. I'm tired of all of the humanitarian bull in this world. The kid's guilty. Since we know the story about the guy and his dad, blahblahblah, then the Korean police departments must know.

Therefore, he must be in custody. So, give him what he deserves. I'm not one to sit back when someone pleads self-defense when the victim was asleep and the kid was LEAVING THE HOUSEHOLD the next day.

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B]The only thing the dad is to blame for is [i]being a parent.[/i][/color][/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]You have no idea how much I despise when people say that. Just because people are so-called "mature adults" gives them to right to talk down to other people as if they are less than they are? I think not. Sure parents will just say, "I'm just trying to encourage him/her" and people will think "Oh, ok, then I guess it's all right" with the sub text in their that they are actually saying"Oh, ok, I guess it's all right that you make this person feel like they're nothing." Scolding and lecturing another person is going to do nothing but make the other person irritated and angry. That dad was the parent of the boy, but he was [i]not[/i] being [b]a[/b] parent to him. If his father really cared about his school work, why didn't he try and help him out? If he is so smart he could have dound better ways to help his son with problems with school, friends, etc. If the son refuses help, then you can always bribe him with a reward if he does good. Yes, bribery isn't good, but in certain cases it can be. What I'm talking about is if the person who is doing the bribery isn't the one taking the benefit from it. In this case, the father would make a small bribe to the son, and if the son does well he gets something whatever it may be, plus the added bonus of self-confidence cause he did well. All the father gets is a resting that his son is finally do well, or better than before. So then the son will grow to learn to do well he will get things, and not always material things. When his school work improves, he can earn his father's trust and gain freedoms and responsibilities. His father would [i]let[/i] him stay out later, that way the son could enjoy himself more, and the father would be able to rest easier.

So the father was not being a parent to the son.

And Justin, I do agree with the whole self-defense thing you were talking about, and this is clearly not self-defense. Then again, that's not what I'm defending, but I do see where you are coming from. That's why you can't get charged with 'murder' if you can prove it was in self-defense.. ;)[/color]

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]You have no idea how much I despise when people say that. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Eep, I didn't mean to say it in an offensive way at all ^_^;

I guess what I'm trying to get at is my parents have always been the type to get angry with me when I don't do my best or when I do something wrong...they're never encouraging when I **** something up. It's annoying as hell, yes, and frustrating that I can't let them know how frustrated [i]I[/i] am...but I honestly know that deep down all they want is the best for me.

In the case with this Korean father, I don't think he did anything wrong. Parents get on their kids' cases a lot, and hardly ever do you hear about a kid killing their parent because of it. I'm sure the kid was frustrated, but I think he either had some sort of depression kicking in, or he's the type that snaps easily.

Piro, if you've grown up with parents who are always supportive when you do something wrong or who don't push you in a mean way, then I envy you, because that's awesome. That's something that I've never had and always wished I could :whoops:[/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]I'm sure the kid was frustrated, but I think he either had some sort of depression kicking in, or he's the type that snaps easily.[/color][/b][/quote][color=indigo]That's bascially what my main point is here. Someone just can't be frustrated or depressed because of nothing. Something has to cause it.

You say that your parents have been the type to get angry at you when you do certain things. You know how frustrating it can be to have your parents not supporting you when you do things. Now the son here probably never got supported for anything, if so, then rarely. Cause his father expected too much from him. Let's say the kid comes home from school one day saying he got a B on his test today. My guess is the father's first response is "Why didn't you get an A?" The son would be all excited that he got a good grade on a test, and his father would shut him down like that. Then throw in lectures, scoldings, being shipped between to countries, and have that go on for several years in this kids life. And now you have all that frustration and anger built up over those years, and finally, one day, he is just going to snap.[/color][quote][b][color=deeppink]Piro, if you've grown up with parents who are always supportive when you do something wrong or who don't push you in a mean way, then I envy you, because that's awesome. That's something that I've never had and always wished I could :whoops:[/color][/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]Well they weren't always supportive of the bad things I've done, but they did help me get through them when they happened. Sure I'd have a punishment, but I didn't get yelled at much or anything.[/color]

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]Let's say the kid comes home from school one day saying he got a B on his test today. My guess is the father's first response is "Why didn't you get an A?" The son would be all excited that he got a good grade on a test, and his father would shut him down like that. Then throw in lectures, scoldings, being shipped between to countries, and have that go on for several years in this kids life.[/color][/b][/quote]

[color=deeppink]That's basically what has happened to me throughout school and such. My grades have never been good enough (granted, I know I don't try my hardest), my committment to my family hasn't been good enough, and my enthusiasm has never been great. I hear it every day.

And it's honestly not something that I want people to feel 'sorry' for me or whatever because I'll admit that I've had a darn good childhood compared to most kids out there. I'm just frustrated with the way my parents treat me, even if, again, I know that they just want me to do my best.[/color]

[quote][color=indigo][b] And now you have all that frustration and anger built up over those years, and finally, one day, he is just going to snap.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]I think I've dealt pretty well with my frustration and anger. There ARE other ways to deal with it...I'm not going to go kill my parents because of how hard they've pushed me or because of all the lectures they've given me.

I just have enough insight to see that there's much more beneath the surface than a parent being hard on their kid (which this boy obviously didn't.)[/color]

[july]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]What if you're not given the choice? What if the only way to prevent your own death is to kill your attacker?

I can provide a scenario: A man breaks into the home of a normal family. The husband is on a business trip, leaving his wife and children(we'll say 2) at home.

The mother wakes up, and hears the intruder downstairs. Her children's room are downstairs, so she goes down, unaware that the intruder is an intruder and not just one of her children scrambling around.

The intruder sees her before she sees him, and attacks her. He's got knife in his hand ready to kill her, and she picks up a sharp object(we'll say they're in the kitchen and she grabbed a knife out off of the cutting board or something) and as the intruder lunges with his knife to stab her, she stabs him. Is that wrong of her?

I think not.

-Justin [/B][/QUOTE]

well did she kill him? you can dismember but you shouldn't kill. if the person deserves to die then the authorities should kill him. come on now!

[Anna]

[quote][b]well did she kill him? you can dismember but you shouldn't kill. if the person deserves to die then the authorities should kill him. come on now![/b][/quote]

I can see where you're coming from, and that's what I would do preferably........ but um, if someone is coming at me with a knife and I have maybe 1.5 seconds to react, I'm not going to take the time to consider what vital organs to avoid if I could lash back at them. I would just worry about making sure [i]I[/i] don't get murdered, and if the assailant happens to live then great, but I'm not going to go through a lot of care and effort to ensure so. ^_^

[july]

hehe... i'd go straight for the crotch man...then a right hook to the face... don't mess with me punk! hehe...

[Justin]

It is kind of niave(not saying you are niave, july) to think think that you can dismember someone trying to kill you when all you have to go on is instincts.

If you're trying to save your life, what good does it do you if you just cut the guy's shoulder and he cuts your throat?

That's why I think it's always best to have a firearm in your home. If an intruder came into my house, he had best be well-armed.

-Justin

[july]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]It is kind of niave(not saying you are niave, july) to think think that you can dismember someone trying to kill you when all you have to go on is instincts.[/B][/QUOTE]

hold on now, don't contradict yourself, don't say that you're not saying you're not saying i'm 'niave' because you are, that whole sentence is hypocrisy. look, it's different here in hawaii and don't even try to guess what my instincts are because all you know about me is the censored text you see on the forum, okay?

*edit*
oops, wait, that's said in the best of tones, no offense meant by it... move to hawaii for fifteen to twenty years and you'll understand... (i've chilled)

[Justin]

Well, I didn't mean you [i]are[/i] niave. I meant what you said was niave. But I understand your response completely, so don't worry about it.

If you can fight and defend yourself well enough to know how to control your own instincts, that's a great and rare thing. I don't know many people like that. I myself have been in martial arts for most of my life and I still can't control my natural reactions.

I really don't think anyone should be concerned for the well-being of someone trying to kill them.

Back to the father and son, lol: I still say it is very much the son's fault. The father was only being a good father.

Piro, you're a great dude. And you're lucky that you have parents who aren't as strict in certain areas. However, just because the way you were raised worked excellently, doesn't mean it's the only way that does work.

My dad punished me physically until I was in my teens, and I don't want to kill him. I respect him more for it, and I understand he did it for the sake of making me a better person. I also got the constant lectures this kid did about all the same things. However, my dad was there for me when I needed him. As much as I hate to say it, my father was the best anyone could ask for. It's not fair to put any blame on the father for this.

-Justin

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]However, just because the way you were raised worked excellently, doesn't mean it's the only way that does work.[/b][/quote][color=indigo]I never said it was, but the son obviously didn't take to kindly to the way his father was handling things, and so it [i]didn't[/i] work.[/color][quote]My dad punished me physically until I was in my teens, and I don't want to kill him. I respect him more for it, and I understand he did it for the sake of making me a better person. I also got the constant lectures this kid did about all the same things. However, my dad was there for me when I needed him. As much as I hate to say it, my father was the best anyone could ask for. [b]It's not fair to put any blame on the father for this.[/b][/QUOTE][color=indigo]As the saying goes, "Different strokes, for different folks." And if life were to teach anyone anything, it's that nothing is always going to be fair.

Yes, I understand that can work on both sides of the discussion. It wasn't fair for the son to be treated the way he was, but it also wasn't fair for the father to be murdered like he was. I'm not saying it's the father's fault he got murdered, it just to why he got murdered, as I've said over and over again. For if he didn't want to be murdered at the time it happened, one he would have had to have been awake (can't help that), and two, if would have ben awake, he would obviously react in self-defense and probably killed his son. The son, as I said before, probably didn't really want to kill his father at the time he did it. His mind just snapped, and as you said, it is a rare case when someone can control their instincts. Especially in an unstable condition.

The father in the end would have to take some of the blame, but obviously not enough to be punished of any kind (if he was alive). If you were to ask the son why he killed his father, the first thing he would probably say is "I don't know," which means he didn't really know what he was doing at the time he did it, but then he would probably go on to mention the way his father treated him, and how he had no friends, etc. These would be all the things that factored in to his stress and tension that finally just blew up. And all those factors take a small bit of blame. I would say it is about 95% the son's fault and 5% everything else's fault. I would have made the son's number lower, but I thought perhaps he never told his father how he makes him feel. So therefore the son would take a bit more blame. But the factors still have to add up. You can't bake a cake without eggs.[/color]

[Deedlit]

It's the son's fault and there's no question about it in my opinion. He got a lecture. Woop-dee-do. :shifty: That's no reason to murder anyone.

[Justin]

Now, I see your point, Piro.

It was your going back to my comment on instincts that changed my perspective.

I can [i]understand[/i] why the boy did it: A moment of rage.

But I still believe he should've been able to control that rage.

-Justin

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]But I still believe he should've been able to control that rage.[/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]And that is just what will separate from what we know as an opinion, from what we don't know as a fact.[/color]

[eleanor]

Moment of rage, I guess so. Um, did I mention Korean parents are VERY STRICT? Like, VERY VERY VERY etc. STRICT?! Most Korean parents, (well all the parents of the Korean kids at my Korean Shcool) hit their kids with a wooden stick or something when they get b's or c's. Well, I know one thing, I got beaten very often during fifth grade when I slacked in school at almost got all b's.

I got kinda mad at my parents, when all my friends told me their parents simply told them to do better. But now, I guess I understand why my mother did it to me, she said,
"Asians don't get noticed much, and it's better that we all stand out in the crowd."

Now, I guess you're thinking,
"Well, if you understood, why didn't he?!"

It must have been very depressing to have no friends throughout your WHOLE life. He tried to make friends, but they simply ignored him! I think it made him feel even worse. First, the father had very high expectations, and probably disciplined him worse than other parents, then he had no friends, and blah blah.

See, that's why I asked, "Who's fault do you think it is?" And then I said, " I think it's the boy's and the father's fault." Because really, I think it is. My sister is studying pshycology and my mom majored pshycology, and they both say it's partially the father's fault.

[Juu]

Most parents do that in Korea. The kids/parents there don't think of it as abuse there. And they don't get beat with a wooden stick. They did like what, 20 years ago. They get spanked, but not 'beat'.

I just so happen to be Korean. 70% of them happen to be extremely nice and fair. I've seen the strictest korean parents you'll ever see, but none of them are mean enough to make their children want to kill em. So, it has to be the son's fault no matter what. Sure, the dad could o been REALLY mad, but, what kind of parent wouldn't be if their child got out and got drunk and came back REAL late? Plus, His father would only scold him if he loved him. If he didn't, he wouldn't give a crap about what he did. If he didn't love him, he would of let him go out and get drunk.