Anime Clearing up subjects of dubs

[Omar Harris]

Ok I was in the DBZ thread and there were some arguments that really got on my nerves so I wanted to clear something up. I know you've probably had that whole argument about Dubs vs. Subs(but I couldn't find one and I'm too lazy to go through every page from the beggining of this thread) so I just wanted to clear up some confusion about us "dubbies".

[B]I hate dubs cause they turn the original into a kid show[/B]
Just because it is marketed as a "kid" show doesn't mean it is so. Let's take DBZ. They have: toys, Burger Kings kids meals, dumb-down jokes in the CN show, whatever. Look at Spider-Man the Movie or X-men the movie which were marketed teh same way, yet no one would call Wolverine calling Cyclops a d*** or Green Goblin's mass murders as "kids" stuff. Of all the anime here that is dubbed and on TV the only ones that are "kids" shows are those that where intended to be in the first place (Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-oh, Cardcaptors). And besides, I wouldn't call a show where characters die in excrutiating ways every episode (even in the TV versions of GW, DBZ or Outlaw Star) a "Kid" show.

[B]I hate dubs cause they censor the good stuff[/B]
a little equation I have for you.
Dubs do not=censor.
American Network Television=censor.
Why? Because network T.V. is for a general audience, the key word being general. That means that everyone and their grandma could be watching this show so they have to keep the mature themes to a minimum so that little Billy won't learn some four-letter words or go shoot up his school cause he thinks he a cowboy. If you want uncensored please go to Sam Goody's (if you can find anything anime besides DBZ).

[B]Dubs make so many mistakes in the show[/B]
Well, yeah. But then again you have to remember a little something called a language barrier. For instance, in Spanish, o or a comes after almost every word to denote gender whereas in English no one gives a damn. We see a dog its "hey there's a dog". Because of the differences in how the languages are said and interpreted, not even 2 or 3 "experts" deciphering the original script will get it right all of the time.

[B]They change everyone's name[/B]
OK I can see if you prefer Son Goku over just plain old Goku or Mr. Satan over Hercules. That's fine with me. I'm a nice guy. But please, subbies and originals, DON'T BE SO ANAL ABOUT IT! I don't mind if you like to call whoever by whatever but just because you have your way, the original (Jenryu, Furiza, Gyamouru, etc.), and we have ours, the more understandable (Henry, Frieza, Ox King), doesn't give you the right to hate us and say we know nothing of the show. In the debate of subs vs. dubs, names are an irrelevant point because no matter what name they go by it is still the same character, doing the same actions, carrying on the same conversations, and fulfilling the same story points. If George W. Bush was called Bob by the Hispanics, or Jorge or whatever, it wouldn't make one bit of difference because he is the same G-Dub (little pun there.) to us.

[B]Subs give you the whole story[/B]
Well, not exactly. I've seen the subbed and dubbed version of "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" (not anime but it serves my point since I don't watch a lot of non-anime or non-Jackie Chan foreign films) and in the two versions there is no difference. OK yes the dialogue is altered in most lines but it is still the same story, still the same characters (more or less depending on how you feel about them), and it is still the same events moving the story along. Hell, the characters could say "I'm a stupid toad" the whole movie for all we know and the plot would still progress the same way. Some details are changed (the legendary super saiyan appearing 3000 instead of 1000, or no rice balls in Pokemon), but most of the changes only take place for unnecessary dialogue or dialogue that pertains only to the Japanese culture and would not be understood by us Americans.

All in all, I would like to voice my opinion in the fact that even if you watch the subs and prefer them over dubs it's fine. Hey, it's fine if you like the original with no English (written or said) whatsoever. I personally prefer dubs because despite crappy VA some things sound better said in an understandable language than written (would Dr. Martin Luthor King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech have more of an impact read "I Have a Dream" or said "I HAVE A DREAM".) I don't care if you prefer subs, in fact I want to watch all my anime subbed and dubbed at some point just to see what the Japanese VA sound like. But please, subbies, DON'T BE SO ANAL about dubs that you have to say "dubbies are stupid for this or that". Just because you know more about the show in its original, unchanged form, doesn't give you the write to go "No, that never happened" or "your information is false cause your a stupid dubbie.", nor does it mean you get more out of the story, in most cases, than we do. Now I'm done. If this gets closed, I won't mind. I shouldn't have been lazy.

[Mist]

[color=red][size=1] Whew, someone has too much time on their hands...[/color][/size]

[Omar Harris]

Sorry about the long post. It's just that people (subbies) make me so mad when they act all snotty because they know about the original. And no I don't have too much time on my hands. It's Sunday and I had nothing else to do today.

[Angelus_Necare]

well, someone had to come out and say it, I agree with you whole heartedly shadowdramon.

[Mist]

[color=red][size=1] I wasn't trying to be mean, S_D, I was actually trying to be funny. So much for humor.... *throws joke book out of the window*

Actually, I don't think that [b]all[/b] people who know about the originals are 'snotty', but for those who are, well...I would be okay with that. If they took the time and effort to find out about the original show, then they should be able to flaunt their knowledge. There's nothing wrong with someone who knows more than you and cares to show it.

'Course, that's just my opinion.[/color][/size]

[Omar Harris]

Well, yes. But I don't feel that they should make us look dumb just because they know more. It's just a show (or movie). The point is to be entertained really.

Oh and sorry if I made you get rid of your joke book. Take mine I'm not using it right now.

[wrist cutter]

I generally don't care about the topic but a few points irked me as I was skimming through.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]Some details are changed (the legendary super saiyan appearing 3000 instead of 1000, or no rice balls in Pokemon), but most of the changes only take place for unnecessary dialogue or dialogue that pertains only to the Japanese culture and would not be understood by us Americans.[/B]
[/QUOTE]

This is a rather interesting point because most people would encourage TV being more educational for children. Now don't you think that includes learning a little bit about foreign culture? I certainly think so, and a frigging riceball never hurt anybody. How would it not be understood? Obviously, there are some uniquely Japanese phrases, but even then, it's not as though they're nonsensical, just different. Why do they have to be changed?

Something rather interesting - my cousin, who is 5, seems to believe everything that isn't English is Spanish, or as she calls it, "Mexico". We recently had a Chinese visitor, and she immediately comes to the conclusion that she is Mexico (excuse her bad grammar). I think it's pretty obvious she's been extremely underexposed to foreign cultures, and that's one of the reasons I fully support that anime not be "Americanized" as it so often is in dubs (but occasionally subs too).

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]I personally prefer dubs because despite crappy VA some things sound better said in an understandable language than written (would Dr. Martin Luthor King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech have more of an impact read "I Have a Dream" or said "I HAVE A DREAM".)[/B][/QUOTE]

I think this is the primary reason that dubbies are called stupid: 1) because of your reason and 2) because they would use it as defense for their dub-watching.

It is NOT HARD to read and listen at the same time. In fact you probably do it all the time - I am right now, listening to music and reading/writing posts here. It's not a difficult task. It's not as though one must block off the voices on the TV so one can fully concentrate on the subtitles. If Martin Luther King had been speaking in any other language, his power would still be felt. The way the words were said wouldn't be any less powerful.

That is an extremely retarded point, and anyone who used it as a defense for watching dubs very well should be called an idiot.


[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]But I don't feel that they should make us look any more dumb just because they know more.[/B]
[/QUOTE]

This quote makes little sense because that's the exact reason anyone calls anybody dumb. You wouldn't be calling them dumb if they knew more than you.

[Def_Kun]

I'm a subbie but there are occassions that I prefer dubs for some reasons said above.

I agree with shadowdramon with the dumb part. If knowing so little would lead to a person being dumb then we are all so unfortunate.

The only persons I would classify under being dumb would be those people who pretend to know everything.

[Ninjaman]

I agree with you all the way, shadowdramon. I never found anything wrong with dubbing. I'm happy with what I can see.

[Omar Harris]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]I generally don't care about the topic but a few points irked me as I was skimming through.



This is a rather interesting point because most people would encourage TV being more educational for children. Now don't you think that includes learning a little bit about foreign culture? I certainly think so, and a frigging riceball never hurt anybody. How would it not be understood? Obviously, there are some uniquely Japanese phrases, but even then, it's not as though they're nonsensical, just different. Why do they have to be changed?

Something rather interesting - my cousin, who is 5, seems to believe everything that isn't English is Spanish, or as she calls it, "Mexico". We recently had a Chinese visitor, and she immediately comes to the conclusion that she is Mexico (excuse her bad grammar). I think it's pretty obvious she's been extremely underexposed to foreign cultures, and that's one of the reasons I fully support that anime not be "Americanized" as it so often is in dubs (but occasionally subs too).



I think this is the primary reason that dubbies are called stupid: 1) because of your reason and 2) because they would use it as defense for their dub-watching.

It is NOT HARD to read and listen at the same time. In fact you probably do it all the time - I am right now, listening to music and reading/writing posts here. It's not a difficult task. It's not as though one must block off the voices on the TV so one can fully concentrate on the subtitles. If Martin Luther King had been speaking in any other language, his power would still be felt. The way the words were said wouldn't be any less powerful.

That is an extremely retarded point, and anyone who used it as a defense for watching dubs very well should be called an idiot.




This quote makes little sense because that's the exact reason anyone calls anybody dumb. You wouldn't be calling them dumb if they knew more than you. [/B][/QUOTE]

1. I wouldn't call names like Goku or Tienshinhan "Americanized". I don't care about the rice balls. That is something they could leave in. But I wouldn't call half the anime in the world educational no matter how much Japanese culture they expose us to. And if you read earlier I mentioned that most anime remains uncensored even dubbed so little kids won't be gaining too much exposure unless they sneak behind mommy and daddy's back. As for everyone being exposed to Japanese culture through anime. Half the stuff they cut out that pertain to the Japanese is too minor anyway (like the aforementioned riceballs) so no one will really care either way. OK, so I made a bad point there and agree with you about some dialogue change, but it is not like you're really going to learn THAT MUCH about the Japanese from such minor details anyway.

2. I never said it was hard to read and listen at the same time. I just said that some times actually saying the words and reading the words may have a different effect on people. When you give a speech, you emphasize words or phrases or put a little drama into the speech so as to grab the audiences attention. Do you really think MLK's speech would sound better in Spanish while everyone (who speaks English) listening is reading? I don't. The reason that speech is considered so moving to those here in America is because since we can understand every word the instant it is being said it is easier for us to get hookedto the way he emphasizes his points and catch our attention from the get go. Isn't that the point of acting or speaking in the first place? Isn't that why guys like Denzel Washington or whoever get Academy Awards?

3. It is just a friggin show. The reason people put anything on TV, in the Theatres, is to be entertained. I don't think person who knows more about the "original" should go around being an a** just because we haven't seen the show in its Japanese format. It's like crying over spilled milk. No one gives a damn about something so minor. Either way if you saw Akira or DBZ or whatever in English or Japanese (with subtitles) both versions are giving out the same story. Does anyone really care if someone else knows all the little stuff, like the characters original names? No. Why? because either way it goes, most of us here in America got into Anime for the animation, the storylines, and the shock value (The whole "Oh wow. America would never put nudity in Scooby Doo" or the "Man, if Goku can kill people, why can't the Transformers") The reason I became an anime fan was because I saw anime on Sci-Fi channel and saw how so much of the stuff they put into it would never be allowed on the cartoons we grew up with. It was different. It was spectacular, compared to our shows. The point of television is to cause awe and wonder through visual effects, not to see who knows what about this character and then go bash someone else because they didn't bother to care one way or the other about something that isn't that important in the first place.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]I wouldn't call names like Goku or Tienshinhan "Americanized".[/B]
[/QUOTE]

Duh. Nobody would.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]But I wouldn't call half the anime in the world educational no matter how much Japanese culture they expose us to.[/B][/QUOTE]

You're making yet another nonsensical quote here. If there was an anime devoted entirely to explaining Japanese culture, you're saying it wouldn't be educational? Any show that somewhat shows bits and pieces of any culture is at least somewhat educational.

And I won't dispute your point that with that in mind, anime still isn't very educational. But that's beside the point - it's even less so in a typically dubbed state.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]As for everyone being exposed to Japanese culture through anime.[/B]
[/QUOTE]

No, I never said that. You're making up your own points and putting them in places that make them seem as though I had stated them, and I would certainly never say such a thing.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]I never said it was hard to read and listen at the same time. I just said that some times actually saying the words and reading the words may have a different effect on people.[/B]
[/QUOTE]

Have you ever listened to music in a foreign language before? Do the vocalists not convey the same level of emotion, even though you can't understand them? The power is still there, and if you're reading the translation at the same time as the song, you can still hear that power, and you can read what it means. There's no less power in a person's speech when you're reading, because they're still saying it like they would in your language. As James would say, this point is moot.

Many great quotes did come from books, after all.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]It is just a friggin show.[/B][/QUOTE]

Precisely. So you, of all people, should be able to realize that writing a large post concering the unfairness of certain fans would be "crying over spilled milk" indeed.

I'm done with this.

[Queen Asuka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by digitalshadow [/i]
[B]I agree with you all the way, shadowdramon. I never found anything wrong with dubbing. I'm happy with what I can see. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson][size=1]And you probably say that because what you've seen dubbed you haven't seen subbed.[/color][/size]

[amiboshi]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B] Have you ever listened to music in a foreign language before? Do the vocalists not convey the same level of emotion, even though you can't understand them? The power is still there, and if you're reading the translation at the same time as the song, you can still hear that power, and you can read what it means. There's no less power in a person's speech when you're reading, because they're still saying it like they would in your language. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's exactly right. I love listening to anime music, even though I can't understand but a few words of it. You can still get the emotion from it, like you said. And when you read subtitles, you can still hear the emotion in the characters voice, and just convey that emotion and the tones they use with the words you're reading. After a while you can almost hear them saying it (in english) in your head with the tones used by the Japanese VAs. When I was watching Sailor Stars subtitled, there were a few times when I actually forgot they were speaking japanese. O.o I mean, I knew they were, but I was getting into the story so much reading the subtitles that it just sounded like English with good VAs to me, in my head.

[Ninjaman]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B]

[color=crimson][size=1]And you probably say that because what you've seen dubbed you haven't seen subbed.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I have seen subs. I don't have anything wrong with them, though. Just the people who hate dubbing.

[Queen Asuka]

[color=crimson][size=1]That's exactly how I am, Amiboshi! LOL, I'll watch it subtitled and everything, but it's like their speaking English and I'm not really comprehending the fact that's it's a whole other language because I'm so absorbed in what I'm watching/reading. When I quote stuff from it, I'll quote it in the English just like how I remember it in my head. It's really weird.[/color][/size]

[amiboshi]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B][color=crimson][size=1]That's exactly how I am, Amiboshi! LOL, I'll watch it subtitled and everything, but it's like their speaking English and I'm not really comprehending the fact that's it's a whole other language because I'm so absorbed in what I'm watching/reading. When I quote stuff from it, I'll quote it in the English just like how I remember it in my head. It's really weird.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]
It's so much fun when you realized it's happened. It's like when I read, I can hear it in my head, but if I realize I'm reading words, and not pictures, I'll just see the words for a while before I start seeing the images and hearing it again. That's how I am with anime. I comprehend it so well reading it, that I can actually hear the English lines being said by the Seiyuus. If it didn't work that way, I don't think I'd like the stories as much, and nothing would be funny or anything. I mean, words alone aren't emotional or funny, they need the perfect tones to go with them. That's why people love subtitled so much, I think. Because the japanese Seiyuus have so much more emotion in the Voice acting than any English voice actors could ever have, so matter how good they are. It's just not the same.

[Queen Asuka]

[color=crimson][size=1]I don't think I'm one of those people who sticks their nose up to dubbed anime, but I really REALLY prefer everything subbed, like Amiboshi is saying. The Seiyuus know what they are doing. Why in the world do you think they are so popular over there?! It's for a REASON, people. And why do you think the English voiceactors here are barely even heard of it. It's elementary my dear.

I have the entire series of Fushigi Yugi dubbed all except for one volume. That one volume made me regret that, too. OH well, waht can you do? Wait until you have enough money to buy the DVD boxed set! :D[/color][/size]

[Anna]

I love subtitles. GAWL have any of you seen Crouching tiger Hidden Dragon DUBBED??! (I know this is slightly off topic, but I'll bring it back to point in a sec) OI! I first saw it subbed (rented it), and I loved it. Then my mom went to rent it again, but she brought it back SUBBED! ::dies ten times over:: AWFUL!! Of course, I can honestly saw all but one martial arts film I've ever seen with a spoken English dialogue sucked..... I watched them for laughs (thank you, Action Channel), because you can't recreate a scene just speaking it, I don't care how excited the VA is. But with subtitles, just like QA and wrist cutter and I think amiboshi said, you can still hear/feel the orinigal emotions when the actual seiyuu (sp??) were "in the moment" of their acting. I don't have a problem reading dialogue at all. All you dubbies are just lazy. :p

[Roxie Faye]

[quote][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter[/i][b]
Originally posted by shadowdramon
But I wouldn't call half the anime in the world educational no matter how much Japanese culture they expose us to.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You're making yet another nonsensical quote here. If there was an anime devoted entirely to explaining Japanese culture, you're saying it wouldn't be educational? Any show that somewhat shows bits and pieces of any culture is at least somewhat educational.

And I won't dispute your point that with that in mind, anime still isn't very educational. But that's beside the point - it's even less so in a typically dubbed state. [/b][/quote]

[color=indigo]Excuse me, he said HALF the anime. He never said every anime in the whole world is non-educational. Also, your second paragraph(of what I quoted) doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because you've ALREADY disputed something shadowdramon said in your first paragraph.


Shadowdramon- I know you said you were mainly ticked off because of the DBZ forum, but if I ticked you off in any way about the whole "Davis giving up Kari" thing and the fact that it wasn't in the dubbed, I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to act like a wise @**.[/color]

[Queen Asuka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by roxieortatiana [/i]
[B]

[color=indigo]Excuse me, he said HALF the anime. He never said every anime in the whole world is non-educational. Also, your second paragraph(of what I quoted) doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because you've ALREADY disputed something shadowdramon said in your first paragraph.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson][size=1]Actually, it made sense to me. I don't understand why you people are all sitting here trying to start arguments with people who know what they are talking about...it's getting overly annoying.[/color][/size]

[Omar Harris]

Roxie, I didn't even have that in mind when I wrote that. I was just saying that there is no need to bash people about this and that. I'm not trying to turn this into some type of big argument full of flaming and stuff. As I said before I like subs just as much as dubs. I was just saying that Subbies have these preconceived notions about dubs that are not always true and I wanted to get the off my chest. And dubbies aren't lazy(well, depending on who you talk to. Not everybody likes to read you know). I could read a whole novel in just an hour or so. The point of TV or animation is visual effect for the most part. I either just don't feel like reading or don't have the money at that point to buy the DVD.
And I thought CTHD was good dubbed. The voices were pretty superb. It's those dang old kung fu movies that suck dubbed. Well I haven't seen any subbed so I wouldn't know about those either. And American VA's are awesome especially nowadays. I love Chris Sabat when he did Majin Vegeta and went through that whole "I'm a prince. He's supposed to suck" thing. Dai-Kaioshin (old Kai)'s VA sucks. Anyway off topic. I'm tired of thinking. I'll go lay my head down.

[Anna]

[quote][b][color=crimson][size=1]Actually, it made sense to me. I don't understand why you people are all sitting here trying to start arguments with people who know what they are talking about...it's getting overly annoying.[/size][/b][/color][/quote]

Sometimes I think people here just want something to *complain* about....

EDiT- I had a stronger word there but I thought better of leaving it be....

[Queen Asuka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]And dubbies aren't lazy(well, depending on who you talk to. Not everybody likes to read you know). I could read a whole novel in just an hour or so. The point of TV or animation is visual effect for the most part. I either just don't feel like reading or don't have the money at that point to buy the DVD. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson][size=1]*Falls over laughing* You just totally contradicted yourself when you said that dubbies weren't lazy and then saying that TV is just for visual things. That is being so LAZY. You obviously can't say you've seen many subs because if you had you'd be on the same boat we are. Pro-subbed people DO look down on dubbing because it SUCKS big time compared to what the original subbing sounds like. I mean, I have almost every anime tape I own dubbed and I watch them and I don't MIND the English VA all that much, but subbing is SO MUCH better. End of discussion.[/color][/size]

[Quote][i]Originally posted by Anna[/i]
[b]Sometimes I think people here just want something to *complain* about....[/b][/quote]

[color=crimson][size=1]Amen, sister....[/color][/size]

[amiboshi]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadowdramon [/i]
[B]And American VA's are awesome especially nowadays. I love Chris Sabat when he did Majin Vegeta and went through that whole "I'm a prince. He's supposed to suck" thing. Dai-Kaioshin (old Kai)'s VA sucks. Anyway off topic. I'm tired of thinking. I'll go lay my head down. [/B][/QUOTE]

The English VAs may be good, but they really don't have anywhere near as much emotion as the Japanese Seiyuu. You can't get the same feelings from watching dubbed as you can subbed. And DBZ isn't the best example. I mean.....there isn't that much real emotion, besides fighting, in the first place. But if you watch other anime that does have to do with real emotion, you'll probably find that what the dubbed version is lacking, the subbed version has. They really do put a lot of emotions into the voice acting. The English VAs just really don't have that.... They can get their point across, but not with the same beauty as the Japanese Voice actors. They will just never compare.

[Queen Asuka]

[color=crimson][size=1]Oh my GOSH, I didn't even realize he was talking about DBZ here...

See this is a pointless argument if you are arguing of the sake of DBZ. How much ANIME have you actually seen that DOESN'T air on some stupid TV network of some kind that isn't DUBBED and chopped up??? The DBZ voice overs are so STUPID and dumb and they have a different VA every couple of episodes. It's so STUPID...

URGH, I'm getting SO annoyed...[/color][/size]