James Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RicoTranzrig [/i] [B]I try to find comfort in God...but it's difficult cause I have so many problems in life now. I pray whenever I can and I attend church...but when I see others going against their own doctrines and moral values they promise to uphold...I feel discouraged. [/B][/QUOTE] Don't feel discouraged. I don't believe in God, however, I seriously value my morals. Infact, I'm sure that I have a greater sense of morality than [i]many[/i] religious people. So don't let what others do phase you...it's not worth it. If you can't find comfort in God, then find comfort in your family and your friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [QUOTE]It doesn't mean that God exists...or is some kind of entity...because there are so many revisions of the bible itself, so many religions in the world... [/QUOTE] But who is to say that the only written records pertaining to God are only found and will ever be found in the bible? For such a significant aspect in history (Christ for example), as well as many other things, it's almost ludicrous to say that this is limited to only one book. And keep in mind that the bible, along with it's many versions, has been traslated, re-worded, etc. over the past hundreds of years, by monks and other such peoples who thought they had the authority to do so. Some people know only of what's in the bible because that's the only thing that they've been shown. Now, don't get what I'm saying here wrong; I do believe that the bible has many truths and for the most part is true. I say most part because it isn't perfect, in its full state of doctrine. ..... just wanted to bring that up..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anna [/i] [B] But who is to say that the only written records pertaining to God are only found and will ever be found in the bible? For such a significant aspect in history (Christ for example), as well as many other things, it's almost ludicrous to say that this is limited to only one book. And keep in mind that the bible, along with it's many versions, has been traslated, re-worded, etc. over the past hundreds of years, by monks and other such peoples who thought they had the authority to do so. Some people know only of what's in the bible because that's the only thing that they've been shown. Now, don't get what I'm saying here wrong; I do believe that the bible has many truths and for the most part is true. I say most part because it isn't perfect, in its full state of doctrine. ..... just wanted to bring that up..... [/B][/QUOTE] You make some good points. The bible was edited many times throughout history because its views and ideas did not "suit" those who chose to edit it. So what we have now is essentially a watered down version of the original book. Having said this, the bible's teachings are designed to provide moral lessons in life. I don't think that bible stories should be taken as fact, and in many cases, I think that they are even designed to be factual. They are there merely to teach life lessons. To take the bible as fact is absolutely ludicrous. It is absolutely riddled with inaccuracies and contradicting paragraphs. I suggest that you read a book titled "Telling Lies for God" by Ian Plimer. It's a fantastic book. It takes an open view of Creationism (which even most christian organizations admit is false) and provides specific examples of the bible's many inaccuracies and false statements. A very good read for anyone, non religious or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 I don't and never will understand religion.... The best thing that I could get to understanding is from watching Dogma, as bad as that may sound.... it may be a comedy but if you look deep inside it's meaning, it is one of the best written plots and has some of the best ideals I've ever seen.... To me, to say something I do not have proof of isn't real is wrong. I don't have proof of Aliens or Spirits but I do believe they exist.... The major word used here is "Believe"..... the other magor word here is "faith".... both almost always associated with religion.... but both words so vague in themselves.... is a belief prooven real? No... is faith by any means real? No..... This is more focused around the Christian belief than any other.... why not talk about Judaism.... they believe in Jesus Christ and god... but do they believe in heaven?... No.... there is not after life... whats makes them different from Christains... essentially to be Christian is to follow Christ.... don't the Jewish peopel do that? But why are they seperate... why is their religion wrong? Believe in the same person/people.... Judaism isn't that much different from Christianity.... aside from the countless holidays and no after life..... Samething goes for Muslims.... they believe in God... they call him Alah (sp?) but essentially it's the same god.... so what makes them different?... Why is Chirstianity the only religion associated with God in this f'ed up modern world? It makes no sense..... Even Satanist believe in god.... but they aren't Christian.... I think the whole religious issue is to complex to even try to explain.... you people let it run your life.... do not you have a soul? Do not you have uniquity? The choice to live life the way you want to, yet you hide behind a religion? Why? What makes you do this? Thats what I don't understand.... Why do you choose to have faith in one religion and shut all others out as if they are wrong and don't exist? Another thing I don't get about religion is the undeniable fact that it contradicts itself left and right.... Does not the bible say "Do not judge people" but I'll be damned if it doesn't say Homosexuality is wrong. IS THAT NOT JUDGING??? What a bucnha BS! Again, it says do not judge people.... yet people who believe in other religions are shut out and hated because what they believe isn't "right".... I'm sorry but thats judging.... I mean, right there, the bible goes against itself... the BIBLE just committed a sin.... at least thats how I see it.... I already posted this next thing but I dunno if people saw it... It refers to the "which is the right religion": [list]"It's not about who is right or wrong. No Denomination is neglegent, because they are so self ritious to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you HAVE faith"[/list] And I'll post this longer one, both from Dogma refering to the things religion does.... not only does this refer to Chirstians but ALL religions, just using Jesus as an example. Read and it'll make you think... [list]Bethany: What's he like? (refering to Jesus) Rufus: He likes to listen to people talk. Christ liked to sit around the fire listening to me and the other guys. You know, whenever we were going on about unimportant ****, he always had a smile on his face..... His only REAL beef with mankind is the **** that gets carried out in his name.... Wars, bigotry, televangelist..... The Big one though, is the factioning of all the religions.... He said mankind got it all wrong by taking a good idea and building a belief structure on it.... Bethany: You saying having beliefs is a bad thing? Rufus: I just think it's better to have ideas... I mean, you can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier.... people die for it, people kill for it.... the whole of existance is in jeopardy right now because of the Catholic belief structure on this Planetary Indulgence bull ****! (You walk under some arc and all your sins are forgiven)... Bartelby and Loki, whether they know it or not are exploiting that belief.... And if they are sucessfull, you, me, all of this ends in a heartbeat......... all over a belief.... [/list] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aya Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 ;_; Vegi took all the good Dogma quotes. *whimpers* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Voodookanaka Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 But it wasnt god whos gave me those blessings, I took them, there my work, I did it, not some god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zanza Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 I think the Bible is looked at far too critically. As you've all pointed out, it has been translated and reworded in places probably thousands of times. That's why it's probably not good to look into each verse so much. Because indeed, you will probably find many contradictions and such. But I think what God wants is simple. It's not something you have to carefully examine every verse for; he just wants you to have love and faith in him, and to follow his ten commandments, all of which are simple. That doesn't mean it's useless to read the Bible; I recommend doing so, as it will bring you closer to God, as would going to Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAMAKAZI Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 There is no such thing as a " non-conformist." Everyone is part of group of some sort.It isn't human nature not to be. we are social creatures and do not exist without other people. There are no exceptions except for the insane and mentally disturbed. And very few of them can take being alone... [i]Kamakazi out[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Voodookanaka Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 What u just said does not apply to myself, 2 of my cousins and my nan, and never has, wether this is something in our genes or whatnot I dont know., but coincidently enough with what u just said, my nan spent some time have psychiatric help, and many of my relatives have gone insane, (even my mother had to be hypnotised for something or other when she was younger) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiroMunkie Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zanza [/i] [B]See, that's my point exactly. You're conforming to only obscure punk ("true" punk). Lots of "punks" who are "anti-conformist" refuse to listen to the radio or anything of the sort because it's "full of conformists". If you think about it, that, in itself, is conforming. You won't listen to the radio for the same reason you're against it. Yeah, there are some people who conform or sellout who listen/play on the radio, but who cares? You're conforming yourself if you don't listen. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it should get a fair chance as anything else should. Not listening for the mere reason that the band "conformed" to society is conforming. [/B][/QUOTE] [SIZE=1]I listen to the radio all the time, if I hear something I dont like I just switch to a different station until that song is over.. and we dont like it when bands sell out because a high percentage of the time they end up changing their sound, which usually sucks. The Offspring,for example, we're relatively good before they sold out and changed their sound to a more up beat pop sound. So when we say it's "full of conformists" we mean people who changed their sound in order to be "playable" on the radio so that people can listen to it without being offended by the lyrics or what not. Most bands I like dont even get played on the radio because they refuse to change their sound, they want to keep being them instead of what other people want them to be. And not listening because the band "conformed" to society is not conforming, its protesting.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zanza [/i] [B]I think the Bible is looked at far too critically. As you've all pointed out, it has been translated and reworded in places probably thousands of times. That's why it's probably not good to look into each verse so much. Because indeed, you will probably find many contradictions and such. But I think what God wants is simple. It's not something you have to carefully examine every verse for; he just wants you to have love and faith in him, and to follow his ten commandments, all of which are simple. That doesn't mean it's useless to read the Bible; I recommend doing so, as it will bring you closer to God, as would going to Church. [/B][/QUOTE] Ok, here's another problem that I have... why be closer to God? Doesn't god treat everyone equally? Doe she not love everyone no matter what?... So wouldn't just having faith in him be enough? If I've read all the bible and I pray or whatever whenever I can, why go to church? You leanr nothing new? Can't you be close to god in your own way? Am I christian? no... do I believe that the God that Christians believe in exist.... yes... I believe evry god or godess from every religion exists.... whether real or just in the midn, they are there and people did and do worshop them.... I have faith... just not in God as a single Diety... but i believe he exists along with Sheeva, Zues, Apollo, Gineesha (sp?) Buddha, Osiris, Rah, and every other god/godess from every religion... but do I believe in a single religion? no... will I ever? nope.... it's not right for me to do that.... and thats where I put the most faith... in me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zanza Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]Ok, here's another problem that I have... why be closer to God? Doesn't god treat everyone equally? Doe she not love everyone no matter what?... So wouldn't just having faith in him be enough? If I've read all the bible and I pray or whatever whenever I can, why go to church? You leanr nothing new? Can't you be close to god in your own way?[/B][/QUOTE] I told you last night.... Because, as a Christian, you LOVE God... If you loved a person, wouldn't you want to know them the best you could? Wouldn't you want to be with them all the time? Just like with God.... Maybe you don't feel that going to Church is the best way to express your love to God.... then don't go.... however you feel you worship God best is what you should do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conpiracymonki Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [b]I don't really think you should diss the Bible so much. Yeh, I'm a Muslim. But that doesn't mean I totally hate everything else. In fact, us Muslims believe in Jesus and the Bible, but from a different POV. We say Jesus: Not Son of God, not God, but a Prophet. A wise man. We say Bible: Yes holy, yes true, but only in it's original form. I mean, you can't improve on God's words,..sure they may not sound right,...but then, maybe you're not thinking right...[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAMAKAZI Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AJ2K1 4 Life [/i] [B][b]I don't really think you should diss the Bible so much. Yeh, I'm a Muslim. But that doesn't mean I totally hate everything else. In fact, us Muslims believe in Jesus and the Bible, but from a different POV. We say Jesus: Not Son of God, not God, but a Prophet. A wise man. We say Bible: Yes holy, yes true, but only in it's original form. I mean, you can't improve on God's words,..sure they may not sound right,...but then, maybe you're not thinking right...[/b] [/B][/QUOTE] ahh Islam..one of my particular favorite religions to study... [i]Kamakazi out[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]This is more focused around the Christian belief than any other.... why not talk about Judaism.... they believe in Jesus Christ and god... but do they believe in heaven?... No.... there is not after life... whats makes them different from Christains... essentially to be Christian is to follow Christ.... don't the Jewish peopel do that? But why are they seperate... why is their religion wrong? Believe in the same person/people.... Judaism isn't that much different from Christianity.... aside from the countless holidays and no after life..... Samething goes for Muslims.... they believe in God... they call him Alah (sp?) but essentially it's the same god.... so what makes them different?...[/B][/QUOTE] As I understand it, the Jewsish religion believes that, yes, Jesus was a prophet and a miracle-worker...but not the promised Messiah. They're still waiting. Christians believe the Jesus was and is the Messiah. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]Why is Chirstianity the only religion associated with God in this f'ed up modern world? It makes no sense..... Even Satanist believe in god.... but they aren't Christian.... [/B][/QUOTE] "You say you believe in God--good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder..." James 2:19 I couldn't tell you why Christianity is usually the first religion associated with God. There are so many variants and denominations.... Most people have had contact with one group or another at one time in their lives.... [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]Another thing I don't get about religion is the undeniable fact that it contradicts itself left and right.... Does not the bible say "Do not judge people" but I'll be damned if it doesn't say Homosexuality is wrong. IS THAT NOT JUDGING??? What a bucnha BS! Again, it says do not judge people.... yet people who believe in other religions are shut out and hated because what they believe isn't "right".... I'm sorry but thats judging.... I mean, right there, the bible goes against itself... the BIBLE just committed a sin.... at least thats how I see it.... [/B][/QUOTE] Jesus says, "Do not judge, or you, too, will be judged." Christians are to be held to the same standards by which they judge other people... I guess I see it as more of a warning--don't dish it out if you can't take it. I don't hate anyone because of religious affiliation, or lack thereof. That's foolish, and pointless. I don't know of anyone who does.... Perhaps you do, but I can't really give an informed opinion on that, as I have not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i] [B]So what we have now is essentially a watered down version of the original book. Having said this, the bible's teachings are designed to provide moral lessons in life. I don't think that bible stories should be taken as fact, and in many cases, I think that they are even designed to be factual. They are there merely to teach life lessons. To take the bible as fact is absolutely ludicrous. It is absolutely riddled with inaccuracies and contradicting paragraphs. I suggest that you read a book titled "Telling Lies for God" by Ian Plimer. It's a fantastic book. It takes an open view of Creationism (which even most christian organizations admit is false) and provides specific examples of the bible's many inaccuracies and false statements. A very good read for anyone, non religious or otherwise. [/B][/QUOTE] The bible I read is the King James version; the others aren't as clear (and I *really* don't like the 'modern' bibles where its written in common language...... it just bothers me, more re-translating to fit other peoples' wants). As I stated before, I believe the truths in the bible (what are left of them). It's just such a shame that a lot of it is so messed up, the stories have probably had chunks taken out of them. And the reason why the bible seems to contradict itself so much isn't because the bible in and of itself is false: but by the faults of man, it has been made complicated and mixed up in certain areas; stuff taken out, stuff added in, etc. I agree with what Zanza said, the teachings of God and Jesus Christ are meant to be plain and simple. heh, that doesn't necessarily mean easy to understand all the time, lol :D just like Calculus isn't easy to understand by ANY MEANS :cross: that doesn't make it unclear or unlogical, it's only by our own faulty, small minds that it takes longer for us to understand. And like I tried to point out earlier, scripture is not limited only to the bible (some people will probably argue with me about the verse at the end of Revelations where John says something like, 'and if any man shall add to this book, God shall add plagues to him' or something like that..... okay, the present bible wasn't even in existence at the time John was writing that..... he was over near Italy I think, while other writings were going on elsewhere..... when John said 'this book', it meant that book- the book [i]he[/i] was writing, "Revelations"). It's not possible to have all the knowledge we need in only one book, especially if that book has been as taken apart and put back together again as the poor bible has. The bible is good and does contain truth, but it's not enough. However I do know that there IS another volume of scripture that has been translated ONCE, and edited for punctuational purposes (I doubt they had commas and periods in Egyptian short-hand). And think what you want (and hey, if ya wanna know more I'm more that happy to explain) 'cause everyone's going to have their own thoughts, but I know that it is true, unblemished doctrine. It's plain and simple in language, just as Zanza said the gospel ought to be. God wouldn't want to purposefully confuse people; try their patience and faith/whatever, yes. But not insomuch that people begin to be lead away. Know why it's plain and simple? 'Cause nothing's been taken out of it, nothing's been added to it, no re-wording. It's been translated straight into English (and over the years in other languages as well) directly from the source it was taken from. It's wonderful.... and yes, I have studied it out, read it cover to cover, searched it, pondered and prayed about it, and a lot of other efforts to know of it's validity. It's valid alright.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 A lot of what you say is true: many of the bible teachings are excellent moral lessons. However, it is true that much of the misrepresentation of the bible comes through poor translation. However, once again, it works both ways. For example, it was recently uncovered that "Virgin Mary" may have been translated wrong, because there is a similar ancient word. Many people are now saying that rather than "Virgin Mary", the bible actually meant "Young Girl Mary". The bible itself is thousands of years old...and the newer forms have been tailored to suit specific ideals. So essentially, we're not getting the original book. But this is perhaps a good thing, as the original book supposedly made positive references to canibalism and violence. Basically, it goes like this. The bible is a book written thousands of years ago by suspicious and superstitious people who were uneducated. It's in the same style as Zeus or the Cyclops...people actually believed it in those times. The only difference is that people still believe some of those things to be true. Sure, it's a shame...but that's just how life works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zanza Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i] [B]Basically, it goes like this. The bible is a book written thousands of years ago by suspicious and superstitious people who were uneducated. It's in the same style as Zeus or the Cyclops...people actually believed it in those times. The only difference is that people still believe some of those things to be true. Sure, it's a shame...but that's just how life works. [/B][/QUOTE] To you, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 According to Dogma, Jesus has brothers and sisters... hence why the bible left out 18 years of his life (age 12-30)... Why did they leave those years out? What is the bible hiding from it's followers? Nothing? maybe... I think there's more to it that not many people know and not many people are willing to say.... BTW: Don't you love the fact I base all my religion thoughts off of a movie, none-the-less a Kevin Smith movie.... i dunno if I'm flattered by the plot or dumbfounded by the fact I'm basing my ideal off of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aya Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]According to Dogma, Jesus has brothers and sisters... hence why the bible left out 18 years of his life (age 12-30)... Why did they leave those years out? [/B][/QUOTE] Someone had already told me that. O_o; Somebody at church. O_o; Many a year ago. Eeeeh?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zanza [/i] [B] To you, that is. [/B][/QUOTE] To anyone who uses simple logic. I understand belief and why people believe in religion...but I just don't understand why more people don't use common logic. There are no basic differences between modern religion and religion of thousands of years ago. Tell me a meaningful difference that proves one over the other. You can't. Because there is none. I would say that religions base their facts from thousands of years old scripture...you're talking about people who essentially knew nothing, who thought the world was flat. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I'm not going to base my entire knowledge of existence on a culture of people who thought the world was flat and who basically didn't have the same knowledge that we do today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i] [B] To anyone who uses simple logic. I understand belief and why people believe in religion...but I just don't understand why more people don't use common logic. There are no basic differences between modern religion and religion of thousands of years ago. Tell me a meaningful difference that proves one over the other. You can't. Because there is none. I would say that religions base their facts from thousands of years old scripture...you're talking about people who essentially knew nothing, who thought the world was flat. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I'm not going to base my entire knowledge of existence on a culture of people who thought the world was flat and who basically didn't have the same knowledge that we do today. [/B][/QUOTE] And what did we use to find this knoledge.... SCIENCE!!!!!! Science rules over all.... except those few things it is yet to figure out. I am a strong science follower... I will look for a science explanation to something before I look for a religious explanation... sometimes the science explanation is a religious one... 0-0; science can be confusing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinji v2.0 Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zanza [/i] [B] Hahaha, you obviously listen to punk music. Conformist this, conformist that, for all we all know you're just conforming to punk music because it's considered cool these days. [/B][/QUOTE] [SIZE=1][COLOR=darkred]Punk music isn't what's cool. Trust me. And yes, Religion is a form of ****ing conformity. Anyways, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed this, but if I remember correctly, one of the things God, or Jesus, or whoever it was, said not to make false idols or something...In simple terms, not to idolize anyone because you think they are 'better than you'. Than why the **** do Christians idolize Jesus, or whoever it is? Odd stuff. Odd, odd stuff. Peace, Love, and Anime Shinji (^_^)/[/COLOR][/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shinji v2.0 [/i] [B] [SIZE=1][COLOR=darkred]Anyways, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed this, but if I remember correctly, one of the things God, or Jesus, or whoever it was, said not to make false idols or something...In simple terms, not to idolize anyone because you think they are 'better than you'. Than why the **** do Christians idolize Jesus, or whoever it is? Odd stuff. Odd, odd stuff. Peace, Love, and Anime Shinji (^_^)/[/COLOR][/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE] Christianity contradicts itself.... i already said that :p It's kinda hard to believe in something that contradicts itself left and right... at least for me it is.... all religions do that.... why? I dunno.... somebody wasn't very perfect in his book..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinji v2.0 Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 [SIZE=1][COLOR=darkred]Hehehe, sorry, I didn't read any of the posts :P It just looked like you and Zanza arguing, lol. Peace, Love, and Anime Shinji (^_^)/[/COLOR][/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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