What are your thoughts on organized religion?

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zanza [/i]
[B]

Yes, your comments do. No one elses. Transtic and I have debated religion many times in the past and never have I considered him egotistical. But to me, you come off as arrogant. Deal with it. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkblue]I'm sorry if my comments make you feel that way, but I guess there isn't much I can do.

I'm not arrogant though, that's something I take issue with. But it's my opinion you should "deal with" and get over. In any case, I think that this has come far enough.

Let's stick to debating the topic, I don't want to clutter up this thread with irrelevant posts.[/color]

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=darkblue]And also, about being shocked that I said evolution was a fact...

I find it amazing to think of it as a "belief" like religion. The two aren't in the same class.

Many major points of evolution have been proven -- we know that creatures evolve through time...we know that the earth changes through time...these are the core principals of evolution theory. So yes, it's still called "evolution theory", but we essentially know it to be factual.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]I actually have nothing against evolution...in that I believe in 'Continuing Evolution' not, 'Original Evolution.'

To me, the belief that all life originated from single-celled organisms in some primordial swamp is difficult to swallow. Or maybe I'm just a little too proud to believe that I am descended from "lower lifeforms."

Animals--people, too---adapt to live in their habitat. If that environment should change, they need to change as well, or die out. In different enivironments, they adapt in different ways. Continuing evolution.

The Bible says that each organism produces more "after its kind." I know that there has been breeding done with animals of different species, and that certain flowers and plants are the result of grafting, etc., but in the 'wild' that just doesn't happen. At least, that I am aware of.

On another note, I don't see how evolution is really supposed to work. Over millions, or billions, or trillions of years, the "simple cell" [There is no such thing as a 'simple cell'. The cell is one of the most complex, amazing, perfectly designed organisms there is....] aquired characteristics that allowed it to better survive....but aquired characteristics cannot be passed on to future generations. When you breed for a certain trait, you aretrying to "bring to light" genes tht already exist in that genetic code. That, i understand. But the theory of how that might have happened in original evolution confuses me. If anyone could shed a little light on that situation, I'd appreciate it.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cera [/i]
[B]I actually have nothing against evolution...in that I believe in 'Continuing Evolution' not, 'Original Evolution.'

To me, the belief that all life originated from single-celled organisms in some primordial swamp is difficult to swallow. Or maybe I'm just a little too proud to believe that I am descended from "lower lifeforms."

Animals--people, too---adapt to live in their habitat. If that environment should change, they need to change as well, or die out. In different enivironments, they adapt in different ways. Continuing evolution.

The Bible says that each organism produces more "after its kind." I know that there has been breeding done with animals of different species, and that certain flowers and plants are the result of grafting, etc., but in the 'wild' that just doesn't happen. At least, that I am aware of.

On another note, I don't see how evolution is really supposed to work. Over millions, or billions, or trillions of years, the "simple cell" [There is no such thing as a 'simple cell'. The cell is one of the most complex, amazing, perfectly designed organisms there is....] aquired characteristics that allowed it to better survive....but aquired characteristics cannot be passed on to future generations. When you breed for a certain trait, you aretrying to "bring to light" genes tht already exist in that genetic code. That, i understand. But the theory of how that might have happened in original evolution confuses me. If anyone could shed a little light on that situation, I'd appreciate it. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkblue]There are many elements of evolution that we [i]know[/i] to be fact. The idea that mankind descended from apes (rather than Adam & Eve) has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

In terms of the specfic theories behind the process of evolution...well...that is obviously debatable.

The only things which aren't debatable are the larger, fundamental facts of evolution that we know of. Specifics will no doubt continually be argued and more will most likely be known in the future as more research is done on the topic.[/color]

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]

[color=darkblue]There are many elements of evolution that we [i]know[/i] to be fact. The idea that mankind descended from apes (rather than Adam & Eve) has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt.
[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]Funny, because I keep hearing about this strange 'Missing Link." Or perhaps that's just me, huh?

I mean, people--scientists who should KNOW better, no less--have 'faked' dicoveries of said missing link...piecing together skeletons of humans and apes, and claiming them as authentic.

Does anyone other than myself find that slightly questionable science?

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cera [/i]
[B]Funny, because I keep hearing about this strange 'Missing Link." Or perhaps that's just me, huh?

I mean, people--scientists who should KNOW better, no less--have 'faked' dicoveries of said missing link...piecing together skeletons of humans and apes, and claiming them as authentic.

Does anyone other than myself find that slightly questionable science? [/B][/QUOTE]
[color=darkblue]Well of course, those people are in the minority.

As with anything in life, you are going to get people who try and cheat.

However, most scientists do not behave in this way. In reference to your statement about the "missing link", you have to understand that nothing is perfect -- there is still admittedly a lot that mankind doesn't know. However, I personally would rather say "I don't know yet, but I will endeavour to find out in the future" rather than simply use a blanket statement such as "it's like that because God put it there".

So I totally see your point here, and yes, there are people who do the wrong thing...but that occurs with anything. For the most part, that kind of thing doesn't happen (and if it does, it's often proven wrong).[/color]

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DarkElf [/i]
[B]

You dare to say s**t to me about giving my opinion about mormons being cultists ? I thought that intelligent people posted, but if you have the nerve to ridicule me and berate me for having my opinion, well........whatever.........just water off a duck's back.....




anti-mormon crap..........sheesh........... [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Eh...I was just wandering by and read this whole Mormon stuff, and to tell you the truth, that's what I've been taught as well, that they're some sort of cult. Now, I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree, because I'm not too sure myself. I find it odd that one religion (I myself was/kinda still am a Methodist) could call another religion a cult. If we're all in it for God in some way or another, why is it such a big deal?[/color]

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]
[color=darkblue]Well of course, those people are in the minority.
[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]Oh, of course.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B]

[color=deeppink]Eh...I was just wandering by and read this whole Mormon stuff, and to tell you the truth, that's what I've been taught as well, that they're some sort of cult. Now, I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree, because I'm not too sure myself. I find it odd that one religion (I myself was/kinda still am a Methodist) could call another religion a cult. If we're all in it for God in some way or another, why is it such a big deal?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

The big deal is that each religion is so stuck up in it's own ideals to even fathem a thought of another religion existing... they are basically as arrogant and the United States...

If they even bothered to look up the word "cult" they would seee that themselves are indeed a cult......

I leave you with a quote from dogma, which i'm sure I already posted, but will again:

-Serendipity: "It's not about who is right or wrong. No Denomination is neglegent, because they are so self ritious to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you HAVE faith"

[conpiracymonki]

[b]Off topic a lil bit, but Hey!
[u]-Runaway Universe-[/u]
Have any of you Brits seen [I]Runaway Universe[/I]?
It was a documentary on [I]Discovery Wings[/I] that came on today and yesterday.
It was about some new facts about the unvierse which were discovered in 1998-2000.
Say the Big Bang Theory was true,?the explosion would move (push, basically) the matter in all directions, right? Well,?that would mean the Heavens are expanding, right? (I?ve mentioned that before ;))
Well,..if matter was pushed in all directions,..since there?s no forces in space to slow them down,?the matter would [u]either[/u]:
(i) Keep on going at a constant rate?
[u]or[/u]
(ii) Slow down eventually (I don?t understand this one myself,..doesn?t seem right)

Anyway, those two theories were supported by almost all scientists all over the world (94%). But they recently found out two or so years back, that the skies [u]aren?t[/u] slowing down,?or even going at a steady pace! [I]They?re speeding up![/I]
The two rival teams that found these results rechecked them (the calculations and stuff) many times over, because they thought they were wrong, they?d miscalculated, and would be ridiculed by the opposition. But apparently, [I]both[/I] teams had reached the same conclusions.
Obviously the matter would only speed up if something was pushing them?so they named this unknown force [I]?dark energy?[/I]. Stupid, neh?

The answer?s right there in front of their eyes,.. and they look the other way. Religion and Science rarely do clash, and when they do, an obvious answer usually steps in. But no-one ever bothers to listen.
It?s like me saying that Thunderbirds was all done with strings by a puppetmaster?but no! It was all done by the 1 in 1 billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a chance of the wind happening to blow at that certain direction at that certain time, at that certain amount in that certain sequence?.
Ask any self-respecting scientist and he?ll tell the same. There?s more chance of trees falling there and then and making me a perfect bridge, than there was of the Big Bang happening.
O.o Do you see? -_-?[/b]

[Anna]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]
If they even bothered to look up the word "cult" they would seee that themselves are indeed a cult......
[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl[/i]
[B]
Eh...I was just wandering by and read this whole Mormon stuff, and to tell you the truth, that's what I've been taught as well, that they're some sort of cult. Now, I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree, because I'm not too sure myself. I find it odd that one religion (I myself was/kinda still am a Methodist) could call another religion a cult. If we're all in it for God in some way or another, why is it such a big deal?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I really don't know why some people make everything out to be a big deal. Go figure.

Now, the literal term of 'cult' applies to just about all religions, yes; getting together to worship a one thing blah blah or whatever the definition is. However you and I both know that nowadays the interpertation of 'cult' is the stereotypical animal sacrfices, weird chanting and who knows what else (I wouldn't really know myself). Now, seeing as [b]I am[/b] a Mormon myself, and would know more about Mormons than anyone on this board, I would therefore know if we had any 'strange rituals' or whatever. Sure, we have our differences from the Methodists and the Southern Baptists and Catholics, but those differences are not paganistic and evil. My gosh, I would not be Mormon if this were so! And I find it very insulting to me and all I hold dear for some people to think that I go to church to slaughter a sheep!

To lay to rest all this crap about Mormons being cultists (aside from all religions being cults in the literal sense):
Sorry to say this, but it's the only reason I can come up with, but some of your pastors/preachers/etc. must be lying to you so you won't investigate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is nothing evil, or.. I dunno, strange, or..... heck, I have no idea what some people think! There is nothing like that in the Mormon church. NOW, I mentioned 'anti-Mormon crap', know what that is? Precisely in and of itself CRAP. In the 'early days' of the church when the gospel was being restored, some things occurred and took place that are not mainstream... at all. Some people just couldn't accept these things, and what has happened over the course of over a hundred years are lies that stemmed from half-truths: Someone would take a fact, rather a part of a fact, and then embellish upon it, and say that 'it's true that you believe balha blah and blah because I read it in this book'. yyyyeah, buddy that book was written to bash a religion,...... what kind of person writes a book to tear apart someone's beliefs?? And you're going to follow what this person says?
Anyway, if there are any rumors pertaining to 'cultish' things in the Mormon religion, chances are they came from some lie or misunderstanding, and are not true.

It really .... upsets me when people don't try to find things out for themselves, and just accpet what is told to them. It applies to anyone who doesn't give their intellect the credit of allowing a choice to be made, because one has sought out options for themselves. If you've heard that Mormons are cultists and you wanna find out if this is true or NOT- hey, ask a Mormon! Or read pro-Mormon literature that will explain the principles of the church (as opposed to anti-Mormon literature, which is the evil most people are actually reading about), either way, find out for yourself. That's what I've done; I took my religion and studied it, found out all I could. I even went so far as to read a little bit of anti stuff (so I know what I'm talking about). After a while I was able to discern what was true, and after finding facts and a lot of sincere prayer, I knew that the Mormon church was true, and I knew what was true about it. I've also studied other religions, and compared the Mormon truths to other things other churches teach. I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to have the most answers out of all of them.

Okay well, I've written enough............. heh, I [i]doubt[/i] anyone will actually read all the way thru this....... oh well.... :rolleyes:

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anna [/i]
[B]



I really don't know why some people make everything out to be a big deal. Go figure.

Now, the literal term of 'cult' applies to just about all religions, yes; getting together to worship a one thing blah blah or whatever the definition is. However you and I both know that nowadays the interpertation of 'cult' is the stereotypical animal sacrfices, weird chanting and who knows what else (I wouldn't really know myself). Now, seeing as [b]I am[/b] a Mormon myself, and would know more about Mormons than anyone on this board, I would therefore know if we had any 'strange rituals' or whatever. Sure, we have our differences from the Methodists and the Southern Baptists and Catholics, but those differences are not paganistic and evil. My gosh, I would not be Mormon if this were so! And I find it very insulting to me and all I hold dear for some people to think that I go to church to slaughter a sheep!

To lay to rest all this crap about Mormons being cultists (aside from all religions being cults in the literal sense):
Sorry to say this, but it's the only reason I can come up with, but some of your pastors/preachers/etc. must be lying to you so you won't investigate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is nothing evil, or.. I dunno, strange, or..... heck, I have no idea what some people think! There is nothing like that in the Mormon church. NOW, I mentioned 'anti-Mormon crap', know what that is? Precisely in and of itself CRAP. In the 'early days' of the church when the gospel was being restored, some things occurred and took place that are not mainstream... at all. Some people just couldn't accept these things, and what has happened over the course of over a hundred years are lies that stemmed from half-truths: Someone would take a fact, rather a part of a fact, and then embellish upon it, and say that 'it's true that you believe balha blah and blah because I read it in this book'. yyyyeah, buddy that book was written to bash a religion,...... what kind of person writes a book to tear apart someone's beliefs?? And you're going to follow what this person says?
Anyway, if there are any rumors pertaining to 'cultish' things in the Mormon religion, chances are they came from some lie or misunderstanding, and are not true.

It really .... upsets me when people don't try to find things out for themselves, and just accpet what is told to them. It applies to anyone who doesn't give their intellect the credit of allowing a choice to be made, because one has sought out options for themselves. If you've heard that Mormons are cultists and you wanna find out if this is true or NOT- hey, ask a Mormon! Or read pro-Mormon literature that will explain the principles of the church (as opposed to anti-Mormon literature, which is the evil most people are actually reading about), either way, find out for yourself. That's what I've done; I took my religion and studied it, found out all I could. I even went so far as to read a little bit of anti stuff (so I know what I'm talking about). After a while I was able to discern what was true, and after finding facts and a lot of sincere prayer, I knew that the Mormon church was true, and I knew what was true about it. I've also studied other religions, and compared the Mormon truths to other things other churches teach. I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to have the most answers out of all of them.

Okay well, I've written enough............. heh, I [i]doubt[/i] anyone will actually read all the way thru this....... oh well.... :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

I read it all...

Now like i said, a cult is not always a bad thing... I said that in some post up there... dunno where... but It's not bad... everything is a cult... believe in god, don't believe in god.. it's a cult... and it's not bad...

Now... uhh I know nothing about Pro-Mormon things nor do i know anything about Anti-Mormon things... however to even THINK that some religion that worships Jesus and God is EVIL of all things... good god you must have a 10 foot poll up your @ss!

I don't think ANY religion is evil, even Satanism... It's all just a blief and a belief, even if you think is wrong, should ALWAYS be respected.... You may be a good follower of your relgion but for Kami-sama's sake, it doesn't take but a person to have Respect....

[Anna]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]

I read it all...

Now like i said, a cult is not always a bad thing... I said that in some post up there... dunno where... but It's not bad... everything is a cult... believe in god, don't believe in god.. it's a cult... and it's not bad...

Now... uhh I know nothing about Pro-Mormon things nor do i know anything about Anti-Mormon things... however to even THINK that some religion that worships Jesus and God is EVIL of all things... good god you must have a 10 foot poll up your @ss!

I don't think ANY religion is evil, even Satanism... It's all just a blief and a belief, even if you think is wrong, should ALWAYS be respected.... You may be a good follower of your relgion but for Kami-sama's sake, it doesn't take but a person to have Respect.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you Transtic, I appriciate your point of view. :)

[Guest zanza]

There are so many instances of this in the topic, I'll just randomly address some points that have been made in the past.

- God was called veangeful and vain because he's either "worship me or go to hell". No, you see, you have it COMPLETELY wrong. God is the exact opposite of that. He is forgiving; as long as you confess your sins, and lay your life in his hands, he will forgive you for ANY wrongdoings you may do as an imperfect human, and give you access to the kingdom of Heaven when you die.
It doesn't get any better than that.

- There is actually only one sin in this world, and that is rejecting God. By rejecting to obey the Lord, you may experience symptoms of sin: lying, killing, cheating, etc. Obviously, as an imperfect human, you might experience those symptoms while being a good Christian. But as long as you confess your sins, God will forgive you.

- I'd like to quote a speaker today: "It's guilt and sin that make you see things about God that aren't true." That's close enough to what he said, anyway, but it's all right there, in that sentence. If you think God is veangeful, if you think God is mistreating you, if you think ANYTHING bad about God, you're doing something wrong. Remember when Adam and Eve at the fruit, then they ran and hid from God when he came because they were afraid of him? Why be afraid of God? He is the perfect, forgiving Lord of us all. So why fear him? Guilt and sin. They had both, thus why they were running from the Lord in terror.

- I don't think that religious people are "weak minded" or not independent. We lay our life in God's hands because he is perfect; we are not, as stupid humans. We put our trust in him because he knows what to do, we don't. Transtic says it all the time: humans are STUPID! And that is exactly why we must give our lives to God: he will help us to become better. That's not being weak-minded at all. Those who [i]are[/i] weak-minded are those with the "blind faith" you talk about. They only go to Church to feel better about themselves. They are the weak-minded ones, not the ones who truly have faith in God.

- James said earlier that he thought religion would die out as society got smarter (which is somewhat offensive -_-). But that's not the case; it hasn't really died out at all. People were always disbelieving Jesus even when he was on Earth. They crucified him! The population, since then, has vastly grown, so the Christians are more strewn about. However, chances are pretty good, I'd say, that they're about the same percentage of the population they used to be. And besides, ask Transtic what he thinks about society. We're just getting [i]dumber[/i], aren't we? Then why aren't there more Christians, if we're just getting so dumb?

That should give this topic a little kick start.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zanza [/i]
[B]There are so many instances of this in the topic, I'll just randomly address some points that have been made in the past.

- God was called veangeful and vain because he's either "worship me or go to hell". No, you see, you have it COMPLETELY wrong. God is the exact opposite of that. He is forgiving; as long as you confess your sins, and lay your life in his hands, he will forgive you for ANY wrongdoings you may do as an imperfect human, and give you access to the kingdom of Heaven when you die.
It doesn't get any better than that.

- There is actually only one sin in this world, and that is rejecting God. By rejecting to obey the Lord, you may experience symptoms of sin: lying, killing, cheating, etc. Obviously, as an imperfect human, you might experience those symptoms while being a good Christian. But as long as you confess your sins, God will forgive you.

- I'd like to quote a speaker today: "It's guilt and sin that make you see things about God that aren't true." That's close enough to what he said, anyway, but it's all right there, in that sentence. If you think God is veangeful, if you think God is mistreating you, if you think ANYTHING bad about God, you're doing something wrong. Remember when Adam and Eve at the fruit, then they ran and hid from God when he came because they were afraid of him? Why be afraid of God? He is the perfect, forgiving Lord of us all. So why fear him? Guilt and sin. They had both, thus why they were running from the Lord in terror.

- I don't think that religious people are "weak minded" or not independent. We lay our life in God's hands because he is perfect; we are not, as stupid humans. We put our trust in him because he knows what to do, we don't. Transtic says it all the time: humans are STUPID! And that is exactly why we must give our lives to God: he will help us to become better. That's not being weak-minded at all. Those who [i]are[/i] weak-minded are those with the "blind faith" you talk about. They only go to Church to feel better about themselves. They are the weak-minded ones, not the ones who truly have faith in God.

- James said earlier that he thought religion would die out as society got smarter (which is somewhat offensive -_-). But that's not the case; it hasn't really died out at all. People were always disbelieving Jesus even when he was on Earth. They crucified him! The population, since then, has vastly grown, so the Christians are more strewn about. However, chances are pretty good, I'd say, that they're about the same percentage of the population they used to be. And besides, ask Transtic what he thinks about society. We're just getting [i]dumber[/i], aren't we? Then why aren't there more Christians, if we're just getting so dumb?

That should give this topic a little kick start. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkblue]There are a few things here. One of them is your last statement. There are actually [i]less[/i] religious people as time goes on. The Christian church itself has been desperately trying to recruit more people over the past few years.

I also think that while religious people are often unfairly discriminated against, people who are non religious like myself also suffer a kind of social stigma. In particular, there is constantly this idea that non religious people "lack morals" or are "sinners". This idea couldn't be further from the truth. I have a very good base of morals...and I'm sure that my values and deeds go much further than some people who might be religious.

There is also an issue of religion that I take issue with in particular. And this is the idea of "having all sins forgiven" and doing good on earth...in order to make it to heaven.

This entire system is actually a way of shifting blame. "If you confess your sins, you're instantly forgiven". Um sorry...but that doesn't gel with me.

In addition, christianity in particular (this is the example I'm using) holds the idea of heaven above its followers like a bone to a dog...it's a way of controlling the population's behavior. "Do good in life, try not to sin...and confess those sins you have made and you will make it to heaven". And of course..."Doing a good deed for people will make God happy" etc etc.

The only thing I question about this system is the person's motivation for actually following the ten commandments and essentially leading a "good life". Are people doing it because they want to get to heaven? Because they want some kind of reward after life?

Or are people doing it because they genuinely want to be a good person? And because they want to do the right thing?

It's an interesting point.

I do good things in my life, not for some god, but for myself and the people around me. I have no desire to "sin" or behave badly, so therefore my behavior isn't modeled on the threat of God's vengeance, moreover, it is modeled on my desire to make the people around me happy...and to give more quality to my own life.

Phew. :)

I didn't address most of the points of your post, Zanza, because I will leave that to someone else.

I just felt that the issue I raised here was worth mentioning...it's one of my many areas of religion that both irritates me and stinks of hypocracy.[/color]

[conpiracymonki]

[b]Hmmm,..I was wondering, everyone's going psycho at each other, and arguing, be it sensible or insanely, but they're all talking about Atheists vs. Christians...
What ever happened to us 2nd largest and below religions of the world?
Like Judaism, and Islam, and Buddhism, etc.?
C'mon! Just because the majority of y'all are either Christians or Atheists, it doen't mean we're not here....I'm feeling left out,...I mean,..so far all I've done is add lil tid-bits...and that truly sucks..in fact, I doubt anyone even listened to me...[/b]

[Ice Dragon v2]

i cannot believe thiis is still up :eek: :wigout: :eek:
but to my point:
is this causing some sort of controversy???

[conpiracymonki]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ice Dragon v2 [/i]
[B]i cannot believe thiis is still up :eek: :wigout: :eek:
but to my point:
is this causing some sort of controversy??? [/B][/QUOTE]

[b]Actually, it isn't :D...I was just asking to broaden the topic a lil bit, that's all....this is all quite interesting actually, y'know...;)[/b]

[Guest zanza]

There wasn't any particular sentence to or phrase to quote from you James, but you should get the idea.

If a person is doing good things to get to Heaven, they won't get there. Why? Because they're not doing it for God. If you were doing good things because you truly love God, then you would enter Heaven. And anyone can say "I did this and that".... God will forgive you. However, it is not the absence of bad, but rather the presence of good that God wants. God will forgive you for confessing your sins, but that doesn't necessarily mean you've passed the test for Heaven.

In a quick summary: the one part you seem to be missing is that Christians are Christians for GOD. Granted, there are those who are just doing good to get to Heaven, but they probably won't. Heaven is merely a present from God to his followers, for their good deeds during life.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AJ2K1 4 Life [/i]
[B][b]Hmmm,..I was wondering, everyone's going psycho at each other, and arguing, be it sensible or insanely, but they're all talking about Atheists vs. Christians...
What ever happened to us 2nd largest and below religions of the world?
Like Judaism, and Islam, and Buddhism, etc.?
C'mon! Just because the majority of y'all are either Christians or Atheists, it doen't mean we're not here....I'm feeling left out,...I mean,..so far all I've done is add lil tid-bits...and that truly sucks..in fact, I doubt anyone even listened to me...[/b] [/B][/QUOTE]

yes I noticed too and I tried to add Judaism in there as well as Islamic and Hindu and Buddhists... but it seems that the majority only know of Christianity and Atheism, or are that way. I read all your posts AJ, so don't feel left out. :)

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=darkblue]There is also an issue of religion that I take issue with in particular. And this is the idea of "having all sins forgiven" and doing good on earth...in order to make it to heaven.

This entire system is actually a way of shifting blame. "If you confess your sins, you're instantly forgiven". Um sorry...but that doesn't gel with me.

In addition, christianity in particular (this is the example I'm using) holds the idea of heaven above its followers like a bone to a dog...it's a way of controlling the population's behavior. "Do good in life, try not to sin...and confess those sins you have made and you will make it to heaven". And of course..."Doing a good deed for people will make God happy" etc etc.

The only thing I question about this system is the person's motivation for actually following the ten commandments and essentially leading a "good life". Are people doing it because they want to get to heaven? Because they want some kind of reward after life?

Or are people doing it because they genuinely want to be a good person? And because they want to do the right thing?

It's an interesting point.
[/color][/B][/QUOTE]Yes, it is an interesting point.

I'm Lutheran--Martin Luther was one of the main people in the Reformation.

Being part of the denomination that I am, I do not belive that good works get ya to heaven. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--anf this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

You're forgiven. Period. Whether or not you choose to accept that gift--that's up to you. Free will. That's where the whole fruit-in-the-garden deal got started in the first place. Free will.

That's how I understand it.

And I read your posts, AJ. It's true that I don't know a lot about most other religions. Some have the same roots as Christianity--but I even have trouble keeping different Christian denoms straight. Even within denoms, there are dif. synods.... But I read all your posts, and enjoy them...learning something new never hurt anybody.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cera [/i]
[B]Yes, it is an interesting point.

I'm Lutheran--Martin Luther was one of the main people in the Reformation.

Being part of the denomination that I am, I do not belive that good works get ya to heaven. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--anf this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

You're forgiven. Period. Whether or not you choose to accept that gift--that's up to you. Free will. That's where the whole fruit-in-the-garden deal got started in the first place. Free will.

That's how I understand it.

And I read your posts, AJ. It's true that I don't know a lot about most other religions. Some have the same roots as Christianity--but I even have trouble keeping different Christian denoms straight. Even within denoms, there are dif. synods.... But I read all your posts, and enjoy them...learning something new never hurt anybody. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkblue]Yeah, I think it's important to understand multiple religions, in order to gain a better perspective.

And yes, I've also read AJ's posts. I read everyone's posts equally...so that I know what everyone thinks.

[/color]