Anime Anime and animation...

[Mnemolth]

I read something somewhere on the Internet about the age-old battle cry for subs against dubs and it prompted me into thinking about my interests in anime.

I should make myself clear from the start. I am more a fan of animation than I am of anime. So it is that I lament often when people fail to appreciate the various other forms of animation, and their contribution to the overall diversity and quality of what we see on screen or on our television sets.

I enjoy all kinds of animation, from almost all places, but because my exposure to it is limited to what is shown on television or available in my local video store, anime and American animation usually dominate.

I know there is significant disdain amongst many anime 'purists', who regard American animation as an abomination and Disney as the devil, whose skin crawls when someone calls anime 'cartoons', or who live in the world of the manga, which really is generally regarded as the most pure form of anime. And of course, they are entitled to their opinion and it is as valid, or as flawed, as mine.

Yet I can't help but wish people would see animation through my eyes, to know its poetry, its beauty, its simplicity and its complexity. To enjoy the unbounded and unlimited visions projected by the human imagination. To know it is entertainment and nothing more, to appreciate its light and its dark and all the marvelous spectrum in between.

I remember with fondness the 'Saturday cartoons'. Intensely commercialised and merchandised, I nevertheless was glued to the television set, mesmerised by the battle between the Autobots and the Decepticons, snuggling in bed to the smaltz of the Gummi Bears, snickering at the familiarity between the Jetsons and the Flintstones, awed by the graphics of Reboot when it first came out, swept away into the world of the Neo-Sapiens and humans of the future of Exo-Squad, sweeping back into the wonder of the ancients from Mysterious Cities of Gold, just relaxing with the adventure of Galtar and the Golden Lance, He-Man, ThunderCats, DragonFly, Space Knights, laughing riotiously under the spell of Pinky and the Brain and the insanity of the Space Monkeys and the vulgar stupidity of Ren and Stimpy, anxious for each new chapter of the Uncanny X-Men, Spiderman, and the dark knight himself, Batman and many, many, many more shows, too many to list, but all remembered, all cherished to one degree or another.

And you know what? I haven't bought a single piece of merchandise. Not one. Not a transformer, not a Batman figurine, nothing. Nada. Zip. Because its the animation that attracts me, the fusion of drawings, colorings, sounds and music.

And so it was that in the early 90s I was introduced to anime. The first of which I saw at a film festival in my home town. I had some idea of what it was, I had followed shows on television that had an anime ancestry, in particular, Robotech, Star Blazers, and of course, the wonderful and unforgettable Astroboy. I had also seen features that inherited from the anime tradition but were firmly American, such as The Last Unicorn.

But this was different. This was the first time I had seen an 'adult' variety and something uniquely anime, and I was quite unprepared. I don't remember all the shows in that festival, it was almost 10 years ago, but I distinctly recall Legend of the Overfiend was there (highlighted by a stoush with our censorship board), I also remember Wicked City, Project Z, and Venus Wars. And of course, Akira. I walked away from that festival my head spinning. Of course I was hooked. But you could probably say I was hooked on animation long before anime. And that is where I come from.

I saw Tarzan from Disney again yesterday, and I'm still struck by the dizzing fluidity of the animation, the detailed and glorious backdrops, and some actions sequences executed with such daring as to almost draw one inside a three dimensional world. Maybe I could have done without a song number from Rosie O'Donnell, or do away with all the songs altogether, but they aren't all that bad. And if you can look past them, you can see animation the likes of which is comparable with anything coming out of Japan.

Animation has come a long along way since I was a wide-eyed little child staring into the glaring light of the television set. I saw Final Fantasy a few months ago, and again a couple of weeks ago, and I can see how some things have changed, and how many things have stayed the same.

There is great variety and depth within the animation world. Even within a particular genre like anime, there is much difference. The way faces are drawn, characters designed, backgrounds used. Yet as much as I like anime, I also love 'American' produced animation. Films like Flight of Dragons and The Last Unicorn are quintessentially western, and they remain a feast for the eyes and the ears. Although Final Fantasy was produced with a mind toward the American market, you can trace its Japanese origins simply by paying attention to the plot and the complicated overlays in the animation. Similarly, personally I have seen nothing like Shrek or A Bug's Life come out of Japan.

I am, I suppose, an animation fan or freak. I even enjoy the much misunderstood art of clay animation, the pinnacle of which must be the Wallace and Grommit series.

Animation is many things to many people. To me it is the imagination freed from the constraints of reality, soaring on the wings of the impossible.

So why did I bring this up? Well, I guess I just wish people can see the forest from the trees, to look beyond the bonds that often bind genres, beyond the idiosyncracies of cultures, and to appreciate all the differences and understand that each contribution is important to the overall world of animation.

[Guest Imsirion]

uhhhh thats nice I guess. I still only like Japanese animation though because theres something about it that blows American crap out of the water. Real storylines and plots and the animation and drawings .... I dont know, just looks better. Even the kiddie anime, I liked it better than American kiddie shows. Than the mangas vs american comics. I hate all the traditional American comics with there traditional American Super Heros, but mangas brings in more diversity, for people of all ages. Well, thats my view.

[Omar Harris]

Not all American Comic books have your traditional American Superheroes. There is diversity although you have to look for it. Superhero stuff is put out on the market because that's what sells now, but you can go to a comic shop and find anything different, the Darkness, Witchblade, Strangers in Paradise, Jay and Silent Bob.

American animation is good and is getting better in the coming years. And remember had it not been for American animation there would be no anime in the first place. Reboot would be an example (although I think the show is Canadian not American. Not sure though). The graphics are impressive and the show itself is incredibly underrated especially the last half, the darker episodes such as the Daemon series.

Americans are just as capable of making excellent stories as the Japanese. Yes now that you watch them, shows like GI Joe and Transformers suck because of all the flowery endings, but this is a time when censors had their panties in a not over the littlest adult material. Notice how violent TF the movie is. Had Hasbro had its way TF may have been just like the movie if not a little bit below its calibur. And besides children don't really care about the stories. That's why we get into the shows when we are younger. There has to be something cool in there(like action or artwork) for us.

A lot of anime for kids sucks and is horribly repetitive because most of it is designed only to promote a new product or gimmick. Pokemon, Digimon (the only one I watch religiously), Beyblades, Yu-Gi-Oh. Notice how all of them have so many millions of dollars worth of merchandise based on them before the show and they are all just as formulaic as any American show. Yes once you get into anime it is hard to like anything else, but American animation is so underrated by anime "purist" nowadays. disney does very well with its animation. And their movies are awesome without the singing. The only problem with them are all these dang straight-to-video sequels that screw up the originals.

[Turkey]

After a brief "anime-purist" phase, I have grown to love american animation. Few animes make me laugh as much as american cartoons.
And I have seen a few american comic books that blow away lots of mangas, but that's another story...for another day...

[Mist]

[color=red][size=1] Interesting indeed. A very thoughtful insight.

However, what the impression you are leaving me is simply "I like both anime and animation, and if you were more open-minded, you would too."

Now I have nothing against animation other than anime, but I prefer anime to western animation, etc. I like the graceful deftness that can be portrayed in anime, and I hate the way animation tries to portray it. Why, you may ask?

Alright, here's two feminine examples. I grew up on Sailor Moon before I moved onto more mature animes. When Sailor Moon is transforming, they have a sequence wgere she twirls, and her long hair twirls with her. I was, and still am, bewitched how it looks so real.

Here's the example of why I don't like western portraits of "grace". Take a Disney Classic, "Sleeping Beauty". If you look at Auroa, the main charcter, her body is angualr, her eyes tiny, and her hair like a stiff bored. Are real people's hair like stiff boards? No.

Here's two more example of why I prefer anime to western animation. They are based on the masculine side of animation, so just sit back for me, okay?

Take Superman. He's very angular and big, a hulking figure who looks like an abnormal freak. Put a regular shirt on him, and he looks freakishly large.

Alright, moving to Parn, from Record of Loddess War. He thin, yet athletic. Put a regualr shirt on him, and he'd look to be physically active, and not like the chunk your local mountain was missing.

I do appreciate animation, seeing how it started it all, but I prefer anime's more graceful lines, to the western "angular" view that seems to be instilled in all that you see.[/color][/size]

[Juu]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mist [/i]
[B][color=red][size=1] Interesting indeed. A very thoughtful insight.

However, what the impression you are leaving me is simply "I like both anime and animation, and if you were more open-minded, you would too."

Now I have nothing against animation other than anime, but I prefer anime to western animation, etc. I like the graceful deftness that can be portrayed in anime, and I hate the way animation tries to portray it. Why, you may ask?

Alright, here's two feminine examples. I grew up on Sailor Moon before I moved onto more mature animes. When Sailor Moon is transforming, they have a sequence wgere she twirls, and her long hair twirls with her. I was, and still am, bewitched how it looks so real.

Here's the example of why I don't like western portraits of "grace". Take a Disney Classic, "Sleeping Beauty". If you look at Auroa, the main charcter, her body is angualr, her eyes tiny, and her hair like a stiff bored. Are real people's hair like stiff boards? No.

Here's two more example of why I prefer anime to western animation. They are based on the masculine side of animation, so just sit back for me, okay?

Take Superman. He's very angular and big, a hulking figure who looks like an abnormal freak. Put a regular shirt on him, and he looks freakishly large.

Alright, moving to Parn, from Record of Loddess War. He thin, yet athletic. Put a regualr shirt on him, and he'd look to be physically active, and not like the chunk your local mountain was missing.

I do appreciate animation, seeing how it started it all, but I prefer anime's more graceful lines, to the western "angular" view that seems to be instilled in all that you see.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]



uh... yeah, what she said...... ^-^'



Yes, anime contains some extra detail that some animation lack. But it's that 'extra detail' that makes anime, anime. I'm definately more ova fan of anime that animation.... and whoa, dude, did you type all that? -.O O.-

[Mnemolth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mist [/i]
[B][color=red][size=1] Interesting indeed. A very thoughtful insight.

However, what the impression you are leaving me is simply "I like both anime and animation, and if you were more open-minded, you would too." [/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

Not really. :) For one thing, anime is really a subset of animation. For another, what I wanted to convey was not so much that you HAVE to like both, but that you SHOULD respect both. There is skill, artistry and depth in American animation. Sure there are formulaic plots and designs, but these exists in anime as well. Let's not forget all those still shots drifting across the screen, or all those giant-sized robots. ;)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mist [/i]
[B][color=red][size=1]
Here's the example of why I don't like western portraits of "grace". Take a Disney Classic, "Sleeping Beauty". If you look at Auroa, the main charcter, her body is angualr, her eyes tiny, and her hair like a stiff bored. Are real people's hair like stiff boards? No.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm....I can understand that you like the anime 'style', but if you are saying that 'style' of drawing is more realistic than traditional american animation, I would have to disagree. A feature of anime are all those big eyes, I mean how many people IRL have such disproportionate eyes? And the hair? They seem to range the entire rainbow spectrum. And when the characters do something stupid/comical, the action and drawing is chaotic and lose all sense of realism. But it works. Why? Because it is highly stylised.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mist [/i]
[B][color=red][size=1]Here's two more example of why I prefer anime to western animation. They are based on the masculine side of animation, so just sit back for me, okay?

Take Superman. He's very angular and big, a hulking figure who looks like an abnormal freak. Put a regular shirt on him, and he looks freakishly large.

Alright, moving to Parn, from Record of Loddess War. He thin, yet athletic. Put a regualr shirt on him, and he'd look to be physically active, and not like the chunk your local mountain was missing.

I do appreciate animation, seeing how it started it all, but I prefer anime's more graceful lines, to the western "angular" view that seems to be instilled in all that you see.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

Just as anime is stylised, so is american animation. Yet the example you've chosen is not really common. Superman uses a style similar to the popular Batman series, spawned I might add from the original Dark Knight reconstruction of Batman in the early 90s. It features great hulking jaws and huge chests and long drawn out shadows and personally I thought it worked well with Batman, the 'angular' nature suited the comic hero, but it probably doesn't do as well for Superman.

If you look at something like Spiderman, you'll see the difference. The facial features are much less 'angular', although spidey himself, might be drawn at sharp angles as are the buildings, but then again that's the nature of the perspective of a high-rise web-crawler.

[Def_Kun]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mist [/i]
[B][color=red][size=1] Take Superman. He's very angular and big, a hulking figure who looks like an abnormal freak. Put a regular shirt on him, and he looks freakishly large.
[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

K I really don't know if this is true. I just heard this from one of the speakers in one of our anime club gatherings.

He said that American superheroes like Batman and Superman are quite handsome over there in Japan. Since most of what they see are anime style drawings, a man with a square jaw and muscular brute is considered a hottie fellow.

I just believe whether you like anime or American animation is based on what is more rare to the region.

And really, Disney isn't that bad. They still do produce some well developed titles and storylines for people of all ages.

[Mist]

[color=red][size=1] So, we;ve decided to pick my post apart, eh? So be it...[/color][/size]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]

Not really. :) For one thing, anime is really a subset of animation. For another, what I wanted to convey was not so much that you HAVE to like both, but that you SHOULD respect both. [/color][/quote][/b]

[color=red][size=1]You're right about anime being a subset, or product, of animation, which I stated below. But although you can give some credit for animation for starting anime, it hardly gets the crown. Anime is a genre unto itself, and basically developed itself, due to being so different to animation itself.[/color][/size]

[quote][b]There is skill, artistry and depth in American animation. Sure there are formulaic plots and designs, but these exists in anime as well. Let's not forget all those still shots drifting across the screen, or all those giant-sized robots. ;)[/quote][/b]

[color=red][size=1]Now why would we do that? :D[/color][/size]



[quote][b]Hmm....I can understand that you like the anime 'style', but if you are saying that 'style' of drawing is more realistic than traditional american animation, I would have to disagree.[/color][/quote][/b]

[color=red][size=1]Back up. When did I say this? I just said that I like the more graceful approach of anime then animation.[/color][/size]

[quote][b] A feature of anime are all those big eyes, I mean how many people IRL have such disproportionate eyes? And the hair? They seem to range the entire rainbow spectrum. And when the characters do something stupid/comical, the action and drawing is chaotic and lose all sense of realism. But it works. Why? Because it is highly stylised.[/quote][/b]

[color=red][size=1]Yes, it is highly stylized, but you put words in my mouth. I never said that I though anime was more realistic, but it's okay. I agree that many of the features of anime isn't realistic, but honestly, do we have small black dots for eyes? Or big ovals? No. Do we have hair like card board? No.[/color][/size]



[quote][b]Just as anime is stylised, so is american animation. Yet the example you've chosen is not really common. Superman uses a style similar to the popular Batman series, spawned I might add from the original Dark Knight reconstruction of Batman in the early 90s. It features great hulking jaws and huge chests and long drawn out shadows and personally I thought it worked well with Batman, the 'angular' nature suited the comic hero, but it probably doesn't do as well for Superman.[/quote][/b]

[color=red][size=1] I agree completely, and I respect the nature of the shows that you provided as exmaples, but that doesn't mean I have to be a fan of them.[/color][/size]

[color=red][size=1] And yes, Juu. I did type all of that myself.[/color][/size]


[color=red][size=1] Alrighty, Def_Kun's turn....[/color][/size]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Def_Kun [/i]
[B]

K I really don't know if this is true. I just heard this from one of the speakers in one of our anime club gatherings.

He said that American superheroes like Batman and Superman are quite handsome over there in Japan. Since most of what they see are anime style drawings, a man with a square jaw and muscular brute is considered a hottie fellow.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=red][size=1] I must say that he may be right, but I consider him more opinionated than correct.[/color][/size]

[Mnemolth]

Hmm...I think Juuthena was referring to me rather than you Mist. I'm sure many peole have now figured out my threads can be quite long, long-winded perhaps? ;) I'd like to think they are long because they have some depth and analysis in them, and they're half comprehensible.

But then again I could be wrong. ;)

[Mist]

[color=red][size=1] Well, to whoever then, I did type all that. Thanks for the correction of who the question was directed to...:rolleyes:[/color][/size]

[Ben Holiday]

Man, you guys are a bit to serious and well written for me. I myself enjoy all of it I keep both styles side by side and mixed together on my dvd shelf.

[James]

[color=royalblue]I haven't read everything here, but I thought I'd add my two cents.

One thing I don't like is when [i]some[/i] anime fans kind of dictate to other "general animation" fans that they somehow have superior taste because they prefer Japanese animation.

I believe that all animation can have merit.

Whilst I can enjoy the depth of colour, vibrancy and beauty that is often portrayed in anime...I can also appreciate and enjoy both the artistic and technical merits of something like, for example, Shrek.

Now, a traditional anime and something like Shrek are really different in many ways. They are seperated to the largest extent by their medium, of course.

But both have their own benefits and both have their own artistic expression. And in my opinion, both can be equally as impressive.

I think that it's okay to prefer anime or western animated features...one over the other...but by the same token, if you're into [i]any[/i] kind of animation (anime, Disney or whatever) I think you should always be able to appreciate different kinds of expression.

An example (though somewhat loose) would be Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I was watching this movie recently and my younger sister walked in. She kind of scoffed at it as though it were trash and wondered why I'd [i]ever[/i] want to watch such a movie.

Now...granted, she's only a little girl...but it made me think; if I dismissed the movie on face value, I'd [i]really[/i] be missing out on a wonderfully artistic piece of cinema.

The same goes for animated features. If you dismiss American animation as "crap", then I think you are either failing to understand it or not making the effort to explore it.

Sure, some American animation isn't very good...but some animation out of America is very expressive and emotive. There are pros and cons to both Japanese and American animation.

The key is being able to explore both on your own...and form your own conclusions. And never be afraid to try new things. :)[/color]

[Genkai]

wow.....that's DEEP for some toons... the poetry of the simpsons...nice ring to it! The Ballad of Dexter's Lab....

I HAVE IT! THE BEAUTY OF BABY BLUES!

[Semjaza]

You can't attack an animations style just because it's not how you like. Sleeping Beauty was meant to be done in a medievil style, which is why everything looks so flat and stiff. That's how people drew in those days, and the head designer wanted to express that. You are also referring to a film that is ancient by most recent anime standards.

Depending on the film, Disney works in different ways. Sleeping Beauty is one example, Fantasia is another... which in itself has several styles. Disney films have a lot of thought behind that stuff, whether or not you want to think so or not. I don't know how anyone can watch the scene in the Hunchback of Notre Dame where Quasimodo stands in front of the window and the light beams shoot out from behind him, and not be impressed. It depends on the film, they vary wildly. The same is true with anime.

Japan and America simply have gone in different directions for different reasons. There are plenty of Western cartoons and comics that are [i]nothing[/i] like Superman. Ronin comes to mind, Black Orchid, Death, Grendel Tales... they aren't all about mutated superheroes. Hell, Japan has things just like Superman as well. Of course there will be big differences when you compare two things that are completely different in every way. No one goes and compares Superman to Legolas, which to me is quite similiar to what was said earlier.

I'm not sure of what "details" you are referring to when you all speak of anime, but I would guess you would mean the complexities of it. In terms of animation, they both have their own cliches and styles. You can't expect them both to share them. Anime is, for the most part, barely any more realistic than most of what is made here. I'm not sure what you guys mean though, so maybe you can explain that. If it's about it's mindset and generally maturity then...

I watch lots of anime, but I also watch lots of animated films and shows from here. Anime is generally aimed at adults, which is the main audience there. That does not work here, we are a different culture. No one is going to pay to make an animated film geared to adults around here at all. Even Spawn, which was doing amazingly well as a comic, was forced to be live action despite McFarlane wanting it to be animated. This is simply because the audience for mature animated films doesn't really exist here. It might be enough to sell a bunch of DVDs and tapes, but not enough to bother making something from scratch.

A recent example of that would be Heavy Metal 2000. The movie simply sucks, and the animation is crap. This is basically the result of no one caring to go see something like this (despite it's subject matter or crappiness, most people won't see it just because it's animated). In America, cartoons = kids, and that's just how it is.

From what I've read here, most people are dismissing Western animation just because it's nothing like Anime. Well of course not. It's [i]not[/i] anime, and I don't think it should try to be. You have to appreciate both for what they are.

If you still prefer one to the other, than that's cool with me. I just find it ironic that most people hate western animation for the same reasons they supposedly love anime. I bet if this was a western animation forum, the posts would be the same with anime and animation switched around.