The trouble with Americans...

[Mnemolth]

[b]IMPORTANT: This is NOT a flaming thread! So if all you want to do is call people names and insult them, including myself, go somewhere else. This thread is for HONEST but CIVIL discussion.[/b]

I would also like people to read ALL of this post before responding but seeing as many people on Boards have relatively short attention spans, I'm not expecting much. ;)

I read somewhere, in the Axis of Evil thread I believe, about some good ole' yankee bashing, and I'd thought I'd join in. ;p No, basically, it suggested to me that someone should make a point against America, and perhaps, at least I hope, with a little bit more persuasive argument.

Don't get me wrong, I like America and American values. Its hard not to be enticed by a cultural imperialist. But I'm also keenly aware of America's place in the world, I'm not blind to the hardship and suffering the world endures, nor to the ignorance and/or indifference of many Americans. American values are important to me, after all I grew up on a diet of film, television, literature and magazines dominated by an American perspective. But that's precisely the point. American values are laden with the American experience. It is ONE point of view. It is neither THE truth, nor the ONLY way to see the world. And the trouble with Americans today is that they are too indulgent and insular to understand or appreciate this.

911 was a wake up call to America. It was a shocking attack on America by religious fanatics. America did not deserve to be hit in such a way, and the people who died in those two towers did not deserve their lives to be cut short in such a devastating manner. But let's not fool ourselves. It was a long time in coming. It was American foreign policy come home to roost. It was the result of decades of neglect and arrogance.

America has a lot to answer for. Americans talk alot about doing the right thing, about law and order. America denounces Iraq for failing to comply with United Nations resolutions, and although the Israeli situation is substantially different, the world is not blind to the similarities. Rather than condemning Israel, the US has long defended it.

FOOTNOTE DETAILS (ie stuff you should ignore if you don't want to really get into the nitty gritty): The UN has had a long standing Security Council Resolution, 242, that demanded the withdrawal of Israel from the territories it won during the 6 Day War. Remember this is a SECURITY COUNCIL resolution, not the GENERAL ASSEMBLY one, and as such, it is BINDING. It has the force of international law behind it. It has exactly the same power as the UN Resolution that enable America to lead the attack to 'liberate' Kuwait. So when was 242 passed? In 1967. Another thing, for those of you who might not know the basics of international law is that the Security Council consist of 5 PERMANENT members, the UK, US, France, Russia and China, and EACH of these nations have VETO power, that is if they vote against any resolution, it CANNOT pass. So in 1967, the US, an ally of Israel, did not vote against 242. Similarly, in 1973, after the Yom Kippur war of 1973, the UN Security Council again called for all parties to implement R242. Now, I'm not an idiot. I understand that R242 also calls for Arab states to recognise Israel and respect its legitimate borders. Some Arab nations have yet to do that. But it doesn't change the fact that it called for Israel to withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza.

America also talks about international law and about the 'world community'. Yet which nation do you think has been the greatest offender of international law? Which country has often and consistently shown a complete disregard for such laws, and worse, turn around in the same breath to condemn any violator of such laws when it suits them? From Granada to Panama, from El Salvador to Cuba, the US never stops meddling, breaking laws, and often justifying its actions with outlandish and rather ridiculous claims.

America says it protects the free, values democracy and actively works to promote it. America condemns Castro for runing a communist state in Cuba, impose sanctions against that country, complains about its violationg of the human rights of its citizens. It did this before the Soviet Union fell apart and it continues to do this even today. But guess what? I've got news for Americans. China also happens to be a communist state. It also is a consistent and persistent violator of human rights. So why then did it get Most Favoured Nation status? Strange don't you think?

Well, maybe China is just an exception. Not so. Anyone remember a small little country in the Middle East called Kuwait? Well, its ruled by a royal family. No democracy there. Speaking of royal families, Saudi Arabia also happens to be ruled by one too, and its one of America's most valued allies. To rip off a common phrase, "Its the oil stupid!"

Well, America is just trying to protect its interests, right? And what's wrong with that? Nothing, except that being the most powerful nation in the world means that you have to be a little bit more responsible and fair in the exercise of that power. Remember Peter Parker and his uncle Ben? ;)

In law schools all over America students are being taught that they live in a nations governed by laws, not by men. And this is so because no man should be above the law. The law of nations, international law has a similar function. As the leader of the world, the US should set a standard of abiding by the laws, not using its might to bully and cajole and get away with all kinds of sub-standard behaviour.

Recently, the world set up an International Court. This is an international organisation, independent of the UN. Its SOLE purpose is to bring to justice people who have commited war crimes. You know, stuff like using rape as a weapon of war, genocide, torture, all those things denied by the Geneva Convention. That's all the Court does. Nothing more and nothing less. The Court allows all countries to prosecute their own war criminals. This is VITAL to understand. The Court has absolutely NO jurisdiction to try, for example, Americans who have committed war crimes. America will prosecute them. The Court ONLY has jurisdiction if the country FAILS to try its war criminals. You would think this is a good idea. You would think that America, being the so-called 'leader of the free world', would jump to sign up. You would be wrong. America is completely against the idea, as is China and Russia. But that's not the end of it. Not only were they against it and try to do everything to stop it from coming into effect, when all else failed, guess what America did?

America, has a lot of its forces in peace-keeping missions under the UN banner. In places like Bosnia. America decided that because it couldn't scuttle the whole Court, it would remove its citizens from the reach of the Court. You see, the Court has the power to put people on trial who are suspected of committing war crimes, even if those people are nationals of countries that have not signed up to the Court.

Let me remind you here of the one and ONLY purpose of this court. Its exists to bring people that have committed war crimes to justice. WAR CRIMES! That's it. It has not other agenda. So what is America saying? That if its soldiers commit war crimes, like mass rape and/or murder of unarmed civilians, that they would not be tried in America, and that NO ONE else can bring them to justice? That these murderers would just walk free? Unpunished? You might say American soldiers would never do that, that this whole thing is ridiculous. Well great! If American soldiers do not do these kinds of things, then America has nothing to worry about, right?

So, back to America and its threat. It should be noted that the UN depends greatly on the contribution of America and its soldiers for peace-keeping. Basically, if the Americans pull out, and especially if they did so quickly, as was threatened, there would be no one to replace them. The UN needs the Americans, and the Americans know it, and are milking it for all its worth. For what end? To what purpose? To exclude its citizens from being tried for war crimes.

So what happened? Well, its not over, but for the moment, there's one law for everyone else, and a special one for Americans. American soldiers are immune from prosecution 12 months (renewable at the end of every year). And this, from a country that claims to be a defender of freedom. The irony of it all. If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

And we haven't even begun to discuss all that is wrong with the so-called 'War on Terror'. Let's not wade through all the blood spilt in Afghanistan. The number of civilian casualties range from the hundreds to the thousands. On the high end, it could be that more innocent civilians died in the war in Afghanistan than did in the World Trade Center. And the war there is not over yet. But who gives a f*ck eh? I mean its not like its American blood. What is a life worth these days anyway?

And what about those Taliban and Al-Qaida prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. Hundreds of them in limbo. Being held without a charge. That's right. The US government has never filed a single charge aginst any of them. If they are terrorist charge them. If they are not then let them go. But hang on, you might say. They are dangerous. They will kill Americans, we can't let them go. There's a war on for Christ's sake! Well, fine then. If there's a war on, and if that's the reason why they are being detained, then they must be Prisoners of War. Accord them their rights under the Geneva Convention. Its real simple. If they are terrrorist, charge them and try them. Else detain them as POWs. Don't weasel your way out of it by denying them the basic right to a trial (if they are criminals) or their human dignity (if they are POWs). They are one or the other, and if they are neither, then you have no rights to keep them locked up. Period.

FOOTNOTE DETAILS: For those of you who may be wondering why they were flown to Guantanamo Bay, its because its not in America, and so because they are not on American soil, American courts have no jurisdiction over them there, and so no one can argue that the action is unconstitutional. Or so that's the argument anyways.

Who is John Walker Lindh and what is the difference between him and all the others locked up in Guantanamo Bay? The answer to the latter is none and the former that he is an American. America is a hotbed of hypocrisy. And the rest of the world are not stupid. Everyone knows it.

In an episode of The West Wing, there was a conversation between a liberal sympathetic Democrat and the Communications Director of the Whitehouse (he's like the PR man). He had written something in a speech by the President to the UN that may be construed as flammatory. Anyway, the Democrat argued that he should be more sensitive and withdraw the statement. He refused. One of the things the Democrat said was, 'This is why they hate us' (ie because of US insensitivity and arrogance), to which he replied, 'They will like us when we win' (ie we will bomb the **** out of them until they come around to our way of thinking, and thereby confirming her point).

The world does not hate America or Americans because we think they are evil. We hate Americans because many of them seem to be imbued with a self-righteous arrogance that blinds them to the suffering of the world, because many of them fail to understand or appreciate people from different places with different cultures and different priorities, and because they are the biggest bad asses to ever walk upon the face of the earth and as such they can do whatever they want... and they know it.

We hate America and Americans because they make us feel helpless and inconsequential. We the world hate America and Americans because they hurt us, and they don't care. And so when some nutcases fly a couple of planes into America's symbols of power and privilege, and bring those famous towers down, if some of us feel, for a split micro-second, a sense of vengeful satisfaction, it is because as much as America has wrought suffering on the world, its nice to know someone has brought it back to them, and hurt them a little.

[RicoTranzrig]

[COLOR=darkblue]It is true that some Americans take for granted the things that other nations would do anything for. In a free society where the individual controls their fate, they can do whatever they want to satisfy themselves. Americans are fortunate enough to have that kind of luxury...unfortunately, not all the world is like that and that's only one side of it. Not all of us Americans carry that kind of mentality. I remind you that America is slowly becoming a nation composed of many races, many beliefs, and a whole bunch of ideals. It used to be domintated by the majority...and in some cases, that is still true. But that's slowly changing.

It would be easy, but very foolish to put the blame on America since it is a superpower of the world, thus making it an easy target for critisism. Sure it's made its mistakes and commited evil acts...but other countries also have their share of slip-ups. And they'll continue to do so because of bad leadership or whatnot.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this...but from this individual's point of view, if someone starts to hate, then, in the end, they destory themselves because they forget how to survive on their own values and beliefs that made them who they were before they fell into the neverending spiral of hatred.[/COLOR]

[James]

[color=royalblue]It's nice to see a more intelligent thread based on this subject.

I'm not sure that I agree with the very last paragraph, though. But I won't go into the details of why just yet.

I think it is important, for American members on these boards, to read the entire post and understand its context and meaning.

For me personally, I have absolutely no hatred towards the USA or any country. It is Governments, not individuals, who end up making foreign policy decisions that can be harmful to themselves and others.

Australia is essentially a "western" nation. And this country has fought alongside the USA in every International war over the last century. And for the most part, I agree with that relationship.

But as an Australian...a citizen of a nation whose society is arguably more free and democratic, I can most definitely see both sides.

The problem I have, is with people who are blind to either side. That is, people who blindly hate America and fail to look at the good that the country actually does every single day.

At the same time, I have a problem with some "patriotic" politicians (and individuals) in America, who have an arrogant and holier-than-thou attitude.

In truth, every single country in the world makes mistakes.

The USA's mistakes are perhaps more obvious because of the relative reach and control that the country has on the rest of the world.

I believe that such one-sided control is dangerous and that is why I believe that the European Union, for example, should provide a "global balance of power", so to speak.

Even though I'm not a hater of the USA, I do believe that the USA needs to be accountable to the rest of the world. And that is why I strongly disagree with the Bush Administration's insistence that US troops must be [i]exempt[/i] from prosecution under the International Criminal Court.

You simply can't endorse such a court for other countries, while at the same time resisting to submit your own legal system to such a court. That is one side of America that I really don't like -- and it won't really change unless America's power is evenly balanced by other nations/groups of nations.

In a perfect world, the most powerful body in on Earth would be the United Nations. And in a perfect world, the UN would have the power to prosecute Americans (even the President) for war crimes or other negative issues. I'm not suggesting that Americans are responsible for war crimes, I'm just saying that there needs to be that fundamental [i]accountability[/i].

If the USA were truly accountable to the International community, I would not have any worry at all. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.

But having said that, the attack on September 11 was totally unjustified. I don't care how people spin it, or how they point to "American injustice" -- such an attack was not targeted at the US defence system...it was targetted directly at innocent civilians. And an attack on innocent civilians amounts to terrorism in my book.

So, I guess my general point is that the world isn't perfect. The USA happens to be the only superpower left on Earth. And due to its immense cultural reach worldwide, many in the world (mostly in the Middle East) blame the USA for their problems.

However, as a footnote, I think it's important to mention that [i]none[/i] of these terrorist organizations seem to blame their own national Governments. They never seem to blame their circumstances on their own corruption and religious fundamentalism.

The Middle East [i]does[/i] have the power and the opportunity to drag itself out of a culture of terrorism and dictatorship...and I believe that doing so would be a whole lot more productive than simply blaming the USA for every one of their problems.

(Note: I understand that it isn't easy for people to do what I just said [the people from Iraq would find it very hard to get rid of Saddam Hussein on their own], but I do feel that if they embraced the International community more...and worked with countries like the USA, they could help to end a lot of the problems that they blame the USA for in the first place).[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

[Color=Teal]Okay I agree with that nearly completely, I have in fact been righting a topic of this sort for a few weeks now (Making sure that it is true and factual, and with sources you can look up because I have been criticized about that in the past.) but you beat me to it... So now I have to rewrite it.
There were a few mistakes in that post but there were also things I didn't know, well researched. :)

James the reason we follow America in to war/attacks is because of two things ANZUS treaty (NZ pulled out because America wanted to show off there nuclear ships and nz is a nuclear free zone and America wouldn't back down so nz left.) and the other thing is that if we ever do get attacked that America will come to our aid.
(They have not done this in the past.)

Okay this has been bugging me for weeks, ?Camp X-ray?.
Excuse my following sentence.
GET IT OUT OF YOUR HEADS YOU STUPID BRAIN WASHED AMERICANS, THEY ARE NOT TERROISTS THEY ARE MERSONERYS.
??..
And for those of you who don?t know what a mercenary is, they are people who fight for who ever pays them. If you look at most of these peoples records you will see they were fighting for a completely different army/corse only two years ago some were else in the Middle East.
They are just soldiers ? treat them as such.

I think it is just so damn sad that America did not learn from ?11/9? because that is the saddest part, not the lost of human life but the lost of there lives meant nothing. America is still as stubborn as ever, maybe even worse.

I don?t really believe in the American way of life, well truly I do believe in it but there are a few key points that I am really against. The way they treat other countries, it?s really appalling. They have ?screwed? Australia over five times that I can think of off hand in the last few weeks because ?It didn?t suit them.? The death penalty. And last of all sueing(sp?) every one for every thing.
Also if Americans believe every one is equal well I have news for you, their not and if you believe they are equal treat them as such.

I also heard this on the news tonight and couldn?t stop laughing. W.Bush said this at a press conference today. (I didn?t catch the end.)
"This is a nation that poisons it's own people" "This is a country that builds weapons of mass destruction" "This is a country that..?
Well is he talking about America or Iraq? They have both done the same things?
So you decide but before you do let me just tell you a few facts.
Iraq did test chemical weapons on its people, America has done so as well. (So has Australia, but only because England made them?)
America has more weapons of mass destruction than the rest of the world. (And you might say that thing with the Russians the other day to cut back on nuclear weapons, DON?T let it fool you it was only a cost cutting thing, they still have enough to blow up each other two hundred times over.)
I heard the other day that Iraq?s chemical and germ weapons have a max shelf life of five years and that at the time all there factories were closed and that there was only about 10% of all their weapons left. This was from the former second in charge of the inspection teams of Iraq?s chemical weapons and he quit in 1996. Do the maths.
If America were doing their job properly they would know if Iraq was producing weapons with out a doubt, not a crappy ?they might be?. And in this case I might support an attack.

I do not support Australia's involvement in a war because I don't want any of our troops hurt/killed. Lol, even tho there are those who can't wait for a fight. *Not naming names...* Lol.

I don?t hate Americans, just that they are ignorant of every one around them and they act superior. Most of all I hate hypocrites. (Not applied to all.)

I have more I just need to make sure it?s factual.

-Cloricus
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[James]

[quote](They have not done this in the past.)[/quote]

[color=royalblue]They [i]did[/i] fight with us against Japan in WWII. Had the United States not fought against Japan during WWII, Australia alone would not have been able to stop them.

We were not as developed, militarily, as we are now.

So, we both owe our freedom to the United States of America in that sense.

As far as Camp X-Ray goes...what difference does it make whether those guys are terrorists or mercenaries?

The difference between the two is utterly irrelevant.

They [i]are[/i] being treated as enemy soldiers...or Prisoners of War. I don't see how the USA would treat a terrorist differently from a POW; nor should they. As far as I'm concerned, these guys deserve to be at Camp X-Ray.

Additionally, you are ignoring the fact that [i]many[/i] of them were not only mercenaries, but were actually a part of Al Qaeda's military operations in the country; people who had been trained and were a part of Al Qaeda.

So I don't see the argument against Camp X-Ray, in your post.

As for your comments about weapons against their own people etc...well, I don't have the time to pick it apart. But I think you have some of your facts/interpretations a bit wrong there.

[/color]

[Genkai]

wow, im so happy that there's an intelligent and reasonable thread.

i myself am an american. I agree w/ what Mnelmoth is saying. But it sounds like he is saying that ALL americans are arrogant and ignorant. Not so, says I.

My brother awakened me to the problems with america, and raised me to recognize them. 9/11 was an awakening to many, but not all.

Also, these are't the only problems. Other problems were not "revealed" on 9/11. In my little town, the owner of the local ice cream shop went off to fight cpitalism.

My mom's best friends was an anti-racism attorney.

a lot of people think the government is corrupt, which i don't think is true. But i agree that our country could be so much better if the government had made some better choices.

Half of the intellignt people out there are freedom fighters, ya know?

So, addressing this thread, you are correct, Mnelmoth. But you left out a few things about america that could go with the thread title.

Thanks to everyone who has viewed and replied to this thread and made intelligent and agreeable points.

[liamc2]

Well although I agree with much of what has been said here, I also have to disagree with cloricus' statement 'I also hate hypocrites'

If you know cloricus in any way, that statement has the suttle flavour of irony. .

-----

Well the only real grudge I have against America is their accusations against Australia's treatment of illegal immigrants.

We have them in a detention centre right?

This is because they are illegal immigrants, most of them fled their country because that they were the wealthy, the prostitutes, the mobsters. Only a small percentage were actually refugees, and the refugees were given the appropriate passes.

Meanwhile America locks up their refugees in prisons, treating them like hardened criminals. Often the refugees are bartered with other prisons so more money is able to be made from them.
(for those of you unfamiliar with this, the government pays prisons stacks loads of money for caring for refugees, one problem, the prisons don't want to lose their meal ticket)

What ever happened to give me your poor and downtrodded?

[Genkai]

mmmmm good point liamc2..... i think refugees really need to be trated for...they wouldn't try to escape their old country if they weren't already in harsh conditions..

[MarkM]

I agree on some notes but on most I dissagree. Also I was very shocked to see the name of this thread...All countrys arn't perfict. So I could say ' The trouble with the british'(or what not) and no matter what the thread would say pretty much the same thing!

[Genkai]

wow... didn't look at it that way!

[Guest cloricus]

[Color=Teal]Lol Liam, I'm only like that irl. (For fun.) But I really do dislike hypocrites.
Also Liam I heard recently that England is being over run by "refugees" and are researching different way of fixing the problem and they are thinking of an Australia-like approach.
Did any one else hear about that?

James we could of held up against the Japanese - give our army more credit.
You must have heard of the Brisbane line?
Well that wasn't just a line it was a whole plan. I'll outline it, as I understand it briefly.
Okay we would give up the top part of Australia and let them come all the way down to the Brisbane line and fight there. You must remember that the troops that would have been coming to overrun Australia had already been tried out by the fighting in PNG and the long walks. Now think what they would be like by the time they got all the way down to the line. But while they were advance on the BL they would be bombed from the air, their supple roots would be attacked and small forces of solders would be picking of troops everywhere. When the mains of their forces were destroyed we would then advance and take back the rest of Australia. Also it wouldn?t of been just our army fighting, you would have nearly every one who owned a rifle/gun fighting ?for their country?.

James; I don't think I got the fact about America testing chemical weapons on its own people wrong, give me a day and I'll see if I can find more info on it.

[Edited] Well I didn't need a day. Here's what I found on the first two pages I opened...
[url]http://www.all-natural.com/part-3cd.html[/url]
[url]http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=498[/url]
That second one makes you think....
These were just the frist two that I found when I searched and I don't have time to go though the other 52,000 sites.

-Cloricus
[/Color]

[Stitch]

I AM CANADIAN hee i just had to put that

but now getting serious i don't really agree to some of these things that people are stating such as "a split micro-second, a sense of vengeful satisfaction" well when those towers went down all i felt is that the amercian government had to get their heads outta of their butts and take a look around on how much influence they have on the world not just the good stuff but the bad too.

i mean yes they developed a sense of women's right in some other countries and yes they gave some countries some ways of running a good government but you have to realize in some countries they don't want this change and they happen to like thier rituals and traditions and us being so powerfull and all they feel trapped between what they think is right and what we think is right so eventually war or assasinations will occer and yes it sucks but i think if the government like i said before gets thier heads outta thier ***$es they might see what they are doing wrong and then they can make it right but this isn't going to happen anytime soon that i know.
~GG~

[MarkM]

Well the situation is way more complacated than that... But I can see were your coming from.

[Zidargh]

Hmm let me just say something. I myself am a British teenager, and I idolise countries such, as the USA, Japan, Australia and New Zealand.
But lets just get this sraight, we all say Britain built or [I]helped[/I] build the USA, or Australia, when in fact this is not entirely true. have you not heard of the triangle of trade between Britain, the USA and France.
But we only helped supply it, its the independence that does it. But personally I do not agree with George Bush's claims or thinking, as soon as a nuclear missile is available, he'll be pushed one step closer to the edge on his own.
But every country has its own government that can really mess up. Seeing I do not support Tony Blair either, they're all linked together in a (psychotic) cycle in a way.
But lets face it, America yes they ABSOLUTELY DID NOT deserve 9/11, but neither are the innocent people of Afghanistan. The disadvantage the UK and the US is that those people are willing to die, I wont get too detailed in that.
And the only REAL way to defeat the US, and Japan etc, is in a link. All Afghanistan has to do is withdraw all their money from stock before its lost and then it crashes the Wall Street trade. Now their is my opinion.

Conclusion
So in reality I think that we powerful countries are growing over confident and are oblivious to see our flaws.
P.s I HOLD ABSOLUTELY NO GRUDGES AGAINST COUNTRIES.

[SaiyanPrincessX]

I'm an american and I don't like some things our government does but not all Americans are arrogant. Know one from 9/11 deservered to have there lives taken away, and it saded America but the innocent people over in the Middle East don't deserve it either.

I love my country but I'm not overly patriotic, I see where your coming from and I agree with some of it, but I don't agree with hating Americans. I don't have anything against any other countries. A perfect world is hard to come by let alone a perfect country. All countries have flaws.

[Zidargh]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SaiyanPrincessX [/i]
[B]I'm an american and I don't like some things our government does but not all Americans are arrogant. Know one from 9/11 deservered to have there lives taken away, and it saded America but the innocent people over in the Middle East don't deserve it either. [/B][/QUOTE]


Really, that has already been said. Did you read the above post or felt like repeating? I'm not a mod but just watch it because this could count as spam ya know?

[SaiyanPrincessX]

:eek: Sorry, I typed that up right after I got up. 3am, very early. I should pay more attention.

[James]

[quote]James we could of held up against the Japanese - give our army more credit.[/quote]

[color=royalblue]To put it bluntly; bullshit.

In the middle of the 21st century, when WWII broke out, Australia's national population was only around [i]six million[/i].

And at that time, many of our troops were fighting in Europe.

We were severely depleted and we had [i][b]utterly no[/i][/b] chance against the Japanese.

The Japanese made a big mistake by attacking Pearl Harbour -- they drew the complacent Americans into the battle. Had PH not happened, America may have left Australia to be conquered by Japan.

Make no mistake; [i]we would not have been able to defeat Japan on our own[/i]. Not a chance in hell.

That is like saying that in a war between New Zealand and Australia, new Zealand would win.

It's just foolish. In that kind of situation, we would massively outnumber NZ and our technology is also far more advanced (and plentiful).

The same comparison can be drawn between Japan and Australia during WWII. There was [i]that much[/i] variance in population [i]and[/i] military capability.

In any case, we have had this thread before...and I believe that most opinions here are being repeated. Not much is being expressed now that hasn't been expressed before hand.[/color]

[quote]I would also like people to read ALL of this post before responding but seeing as many people on Boards have relatively short attention spans, I'm not expecting much. [/quote]

[color=royalblue]And while I'm on the subject of this thread, let me say one thing.

Mnemolth, while I [i]am[/i] pleased that someone is putting throught into a thread in this forum, I do not believe that you will become a popular member by alienating the very people that you are trying to have a discussion with.

Let's try and tone down the pompous rhetoric and discuss things in a more civil way.

If people want to continue this discussion, I recommend that they use the other thread, rather than this one. As I said, all we are seeing is a broad re-statement of what has already been said. And in addition, we are starting to veer massively off course into ridiculous and inappropriate debate.[/color]