Sorry if I offend anyone.

[Justin]

I suppose they felt like they were martyrs. By the definition of the word, I guess they were. I just have a hard time picturing people like that as anything but people like that; if that makes sense.

-Justin

[Sui Generis]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B]Does anyone here consider the Afgans who died attacking America, martyrs?
I am not sure if people will be able to look past the fact that they killed so many innocents, but still. If they died for what they belive in, for their faith, are they martyrs? I hope you can look past the fact that people in America died for something they had no idea about, but I want some interesting discussion. All this talk about remembering 9\11 has got me thinkin. I was just wondering what everyone else thinks about this. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't necesarrily think they are matyrs just for the simple fact that usually a matyr was someone pursicuted or killed by someone else for their beliefes. They were killing themselves willingly for their beliefe. Hero maybe. Not a matyr. And it really can't be considered for the religion. They killed us becuase "we are christian." and the fact is in the Islam religion the Christian and Jewish people are considered "People of the book" they think of Christian and Jewish people as brothers and sisters. Besides have you ever looked up the word Islam? It means Peace or Submission, these acts are not of the Islam faith. So no they definatly couldn't be matrys. Thats my opinion atleast.

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo]I'm pretty sure you have all heard the phrase "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." ? That pretty much sums this situation up. (if you don't get it, think about it for a while... then forget it cause it really isn't that important and carry on with your life)[/color]

[Mist]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]I'm pretty sure you have all heard the phrase "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." ? That pretty much sums this situation up. (if you don't get it, think about it for a while... then forget it cause it really isn't that important and carry on with your life)[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson][size=1] Yeah...what he said. ^^;;

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnimeLover [/i]
[B][color=red]not to. In my English class we just finished reading Farenheit 451, a great book which kind of relates to this subject (in a way). [/QUOTE]

Off subject: I've read the book also, although I didn't think it was as fantastic as you made it sound. It was good, nonetheless, though.[/color][/size]

[liamc2]

First of all, I do enjoy a good America bashing as the next person, but aslong as it is well founded. In fact to be precise, very well founded. And so far what I have seen isn't very well founded at all.

But that is just my opinion

Secondly, my opinion of september 11th is that we shouldn't be celebrating 11/9, it's just an insult to those who died and the family of those that died. There it is, pure and simple.

Also, I detested the over saturation of the anniversary of September 11th, ie: the 12 hour straight coverage of 11/9 on practically every channel. It was basically one of those nights where you visit the local video rental store and rent out a few DVD's and videos.

Please America, stop waving your damn flag. We get the picture.

[Lady Macaiodh]

[COLOR=darkblue]to answer it plainly, to those who believe in their cause, the terrorists are martyrs. but people who are against them don't think so. that's the whole concept of martyrdom... people are not going to agree on that one.

but personally, i will be so glad when these kinds of discussions are over. yesterday, my tv was broken & i could only get one channel. so i had to watch the coverage... but i could only stomach about an hour of it. i'm sick of thinking about it.

& more innocent people are going to die, that's just a fact. the whole situation depresses the hell outta me. i try not to think about it.[/COLOR]

[Jesus Chicken]

Well it's nice to see that you believe they are martyrs, regardless of what act. That brings me to my next question, though. IF they died for their faith, ins't that an honourable sacrifice?
Another thing, America has been talking about taking a cause of justice and stuff like that, but isnt killing more civialians then were actually killed in the original attack kind of a conridiction?

[Mitch]

[color=red]They hijackers killing themselves [i]was[/i] an honorable sacrifice in their eyes, but to us Americans, no it wasn't. That's what the fact is.[/color]

[James]

[color=royalblue]

[i]Deliberately[/i] killing people who are innocent is never honourable.
[/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue][i]Deliberately[/i] killing people who are innocent is never honourable.[/color][/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]If that was so, then Japan would have used kamakazi warfare against us. It was their ideal that it was honorable for one to die for one's country, and that's what they did. No matter whoever else died in the process. Of course the people in America thought they were barbaric, but as I said before: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." This discussion can go back and forth forever. because it is merely an opinion formed from what perspective you're looking at it. From an American's point of view, the terrorists are not martyrs, they are exactly what America has labled them: Terrorist, and nothing more. Although, from an Afghan or other "anti-america" country's point of view, those people will say they [i]are[/i] martyrs. It just all on how you look at it. Neither side can be proven as fact and law. Each side has their own evidence and rebuttle to support their side, and retort against yours. I don't really see why it matters. They hit the buildings, it's over with. Besides for those people who knew the victims of the attacks, people should pretty much forget the thing and move on. Terrorist attacks happen everyday. Maybe not here, but other places they do, and we sure as hell can't stay "terrorist-free" forever. Not to mention we pretty much had it coming. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about it. It's been a little over a year now, and people still act like it was yesterday. Get over it all ready.[/color]

[Mist]

[color=crimson][size=1] I can see how some would get sick of this subject, but forgetting it ever happened isn't exactley ideal though. I know you implied that people should just get over, yet, I find it hard to just [i]get[/i] it over it.

I'm honestly trying not to sound too sentimental here, but in truth, I'm just another kid in a huge nation that I thought was safe, and it was suddenly attacked, and the "safety" was gone.
It's, I guess you could say, like a scar. Like, when your parents get divorced, it usually has a long-lasting effect, according to my Pshycology teacher, on the child(s). [/color][/size]

[Genkai]

Eyes. Perspective. Viewpoint.

That's it. They are martyrs. They are honorable. They aren't martyrs. they aren't honorable.

We can't know if it was honorable. Of course, that's not what this thread is about, it's about our opinions. If you look in the people who crashed into the WTC, yes. if you ae looking through George w. bush's eyes, no. etc.

anyway, i think that they were not honorable, because this pretty much means that they are honored my me. hell no.

to mist: well, i think that a martyr in general is a respectful title, but context context context.:whoops:

[Mist]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by genkai_yyh [/i]
[B]

to mist: well, i think that a martyr in general is a respectful title, but context context context.:whoops: [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson][size=1] It [b]is[/b] a respectful title; but the thought of making thses people martyrs in [b]their[/b] time was idiotic, to those who were alive during the time.[/color][/size]

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo]Meh, I got over it the day it happened, but that's just me and my apathy/pragmatic-ness. I just deal with things [i]really really[/i] quickly.

You should know better than to feel secure in America, lol. There's enough crime in this country to let you know that. :p[/color]

[Mist]

[color=crimson][size=1] I have an excuse for my ignorance: I live in Arkansas. :p

Seriously, I meant that I felt [i]safer[/i] in America then I have in other countries I've been to. (Phillipppines, Japan, and both Koreas...)[/color][/size]

[Juu]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]Both koreas????

B-but... you could only go to north korea this year....

Before that... the only way you'd be in north korea, is if your dead on the border...-_-[/color] [/size]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]Here are several opinions that I would like to state regarding this thread.

1. I don't believe that the terrorists are martyrs...if they destroyed an army base, crashed into the statue of liberty, or bombed the white house prehaps I would concede that they were martyrs for their cause. All that they did was take the lives of hard working mothers and fathers that were about to begin their business day.

2. Osama Bin Laden is a coward amongst cowards...he talks the talk but can't walk the walk...he orders his own men to give their lives for a chance at paradise, but he is too afraid to sacrifice himself in his so called "holy war"

3. Of course the US wants the aide of Australia's elite fighting force, we also want the aide of Russia's, Britian's and Isreal's elite fighting forces to help us in Iraq. If we can gather a coalition of the best soldiers from all over victory will be swift and the casualties minimal...it is no different when other countries ask for America's aide in warfare...with combined technology and the best soldiers a conflict can be resolved efficently[/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo]I don't really understand why people all of the sudden "didn't feel safe". I mean, these people came from [i]outside[/i] our country. It's not like they have been living here for a long time. If they came from outside our country, we can go right ahead and take action against them and flatten their country/city. I think things such as the Oklahoma City Bombing, and the Columbine Shooting are stuff that should make people feel afraid and insecure. The people who did that are [i]inside[/i] the U.S. The government just can't go bombing Timothy McVay's(sp?) home, without killing many other people in the process now can they? All they can do is give him the death sentence, which is pretty much what he wanted. Yet over in the Middle East we just cruise on over, bomb the life out of the country, and do we care if there might have been innocent people against what the terrorists did? Obviously not. We've probably done more damage to them then they have to us.

Just think that the U.S. is the world's largest super-power. And [i]aaaallll[/i] of that information on how to build various bombs can be found on this little thing called the internet, or even inside the system if you join the military and learn things in there (which is how McVay(sp?) knew how to do what he did, and the sight of killing someone in a battle gave him his killer instinct). With the amount of rescources America has, there is a better chance of you getting killed by a neighbor rather than someone from somewhere else.[/color]

[MarkM]

Look they killed a lot of people and thats just ummmm NOT COOL!

Do you know what i say to them!:butthead:

[Lady Macaiodh]

[COLOR=darkblue]no one is ever really safe, though. you could have a heart attack, or die in an accident, or... practically anything.[/COLOR]

[Mist]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lady Macaiodh [/i]
[B][COLOR=darkblue]no one is ever really safe, though. you could have a heart attack, or die in an accident, or... practically anything.[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson][size=1] Of course no one is ever really [b][i]safe[/i][/b], but I was implying that I [i]felt[/i] safe.[/color][/size]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]If that was so, then Japan would have used kamakazi warfare against us. It was their ideal that it was honorable for one to die for one's country, and that's what they did. No matter whoever else died in the process. Of course the people in America thought they were barbaric, but as I said before: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." This discussion can go back and forth forever.[/quote][/color][/b]

[color=royalblue]Actually, there is a fundamental thing you're forgetting here.

Japan attacked a [i]military installation[/i]. They declared war. It was an official war.

There is an absolutely massive difference between striking aircraft carriers and military bases compared to towers full of office workers. There is absolutely no common ground between the two.[/color][quote][color=indigo][b]

because it is merely an opinion formed from what perspective you're looking at it. From an American's point of view, the terrorists are not martyrs, they are exactly what America has labled them: Terrorist, and nothing more. Although, from an Afghan or other "anti-america" country's point of view, those people will say they [i]are[/i] martyrs. It just all on how you look at it. Neither side can be proven as fact and law.[/quote][/color][/b]

[color=royalblue]That's true, but ANYONE can make the clear distinction between the blatant [i]murder[/i] of innocent people compared to fighting against troops or military. As I said, there's a big difference. Anyone who tries to justify the killing of civilians is frankly nothing more than a coldhearted fool.[/color][quote][color=indigo][b]

Besides for those people who knew the victims of the attacks, people should pretty much forget the thing and move on. Terrorist attacks happen everyday. Maybe not here, but other places they do, and we sure as hell can't stay "terrorist-free" forever. Not to mention we pretty much had it coming. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about it. It's been a little over a year now, and people still act like it was yesterday. Get over it all ready.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]I can't believe you said that, Piro.

Are you demonstrating that you're the product of the "MTV Generation" with a five second attention span?

"Oh this is boring, let's move on".

That's very coldhearted of you. And I'm very surprised to see you say something of that nature.

We should [i]not[/i] forget either this attack or the many others that occur around the world. These incidents are harsh reminders of the dangers of religious fundamentalism as well as political extremism.

I'm not trying to defend everything America does...but in this situation, I am just not coldhearted enough to be so dismissive about September 11. When [i]you[/i] or your family are involved in something like September 11...you sure as hell won't want people saying "let's just forget it and move on, we're bored now". Infact, I imagine you'd be deeply offended by such remarks.

I understand that we have to get on with our lives...I'm not trying to dwell on the subject. But it makes me very angry to see these short attention spans and complacent "who cares" attitudes. We can never forget these persistent reminders.[/color]

[Chaos]

I've skipped over half of the posts in here, because I'm sorta pressed for time, and I need to express my view on this.

Martyr, by definition, means someone who dies FOR or BECAUSE of their religion. Meaning they were hunted down, and killed for their 'religionistic' ideals.

Thus, the terrorists that jacked the planes, are not martyrs; just radicalists making another suicide bombing.

But if martyr DID mean that someone died for their simple beliefs in life, then every person that died in a war would be a martyr. Including the Viet-Cong, the Nazis, and every other bad guy and his lackies would be martyrs.

And, here's a 'debate' with James, since I don't feel like retyping all of that from the IM..

SSayian5 Blank (11:19:34 AM): And a martyr is only a martyr if they are killed FOR and BECAUSE of their religion and beliefs.

JamesOtaku01 (11:20:23 AM): If you commit suicide...I wouldn't call that martyrdom

JamesOtaku01 (11:20:33 AM): but if you were shot in a battle, maybe that's different

SSayian5 Blank (11:20:36 AM): If they just go out and kill themselves out of what some coward who proclaims the religion to say says, then they're just doing yet another suicide bombing.

JamesOtaku01 (11:20:47 AM): either way, anyone who is cowardly enough to destroy a daycare center full of little children is nothing but a coward in my eyes.

JamesOtaku01 (11:21:04 AM): And anyone else can say what they like...but defending the murder of little children and their parents is just sick, frankly.

SSayian5 Blank (11:21:28 AM): If a martyr is your second example, then every person in war is a marytr...

JamesOtaku01 (11:21:47 AM): Yeah, pretty much

SSayian5 Blank (11:21:56 AM): Including the Viet-Cong, Nazis, and every other bad guy and his lackies.

JamesOtaku01 (11:22:18 AM): That's right

JamesOtaku01 (11:22:25 AM): it is indeed a pretty subjective word

JamesOtaku01 (11:22:37 AM): but I don't see how anyone can defend the killing of parents and children

JamesOtaku01 (11:22:37 AM): And I don't care how religious they are

JamesOtaku01 (11:22:40 AM): there just no defence

SSayian5 Blank (11:22:45 AM): It's thrown around too much in a sense of moral...

SSayian5 Blank (11:22:46 AM): eah

SSayian5 Blank (11:23:00 AM): I agree about the daycare and killing parents and their children

SSayian5 Blank (11:23:05 AM): That's just plain sick...

SSayian5 Blank (11:23:12 AM): I wouldn't even go that far

JamesOtaku01 (11:23:23 AM): Exactly

JamesOtaku01 (11:23:33 AM): The WTC did have a day care center

SSayian5 Blank (11:23:46 AM): I've always had this thing about women and children.

JamesOtaku01 (11:23:49 AM): so, I don't know how anyone cna justify that

SSayian5 Blank (11:23:52 AM): You never mess with them...

SSayian5 Blank (11:23:59 AM): You just go after the soldiers.

SSayian5 Blank (11:24:12 AM): But yeah...I remembered hearding about that in WTC



Edit: And after reading James' last message, I have to say that I agree with Piro. Sure, let's not FORGET September 11, but let's not let it dominate our lifestyles and infringe on everything we do. Because, the moment we let it get to us, we're doing what the terrorists were trying to make us do.

[James]

[color=royalblue]I'm not saying that it should dominate our lifestyles. You shouldn't misunderstand my comments; I'm just saying that we can't be so dismissive and forgetful about it.

I mean, Piro was coming across as though he was like "Oh yeah, that little thing a year ago...*yawn* who cares, let's forget it. I'm bored".

I know he probably didn't mean to come across that way, but that's how I read it.

Of course it shouldn't dominate our lifestyles...I certainly don't agree with that. But we can't be complacent about it either. [/color]

[Lady Macaiodh]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mist [/i]
[B][color=crimson][size=1] Of course no one is ever really [b][i]safe[/i][/b], but I was implying that I [i]felt[/i] safe.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=darkblue]sorry, i said that wrong.

i meant that there's no point in worrying. but that's easier said than done, i know.[/COLOR]