Sorry if I offend anyone.

[Jesus Chicken]

Just one more thing. If America are waging a war on terror, are they going strike out against the IRA? They have been attacking England for howevere long now, so what's America going to do there?

[Mist]

[color=crimson][size=1] I think that America is going to take this 'war' in steps. I'm sure we'll reach the IRA in time, due to the fact that everyone is so hyped up about Iraq...[/color][/size]

[James]

[color=royalblue]Two issues about the IRA:

1) The IRA is not being willingly hosted by the Government of Ireland. (Unlike the Taliban and Al-Qaeda).

2) The IRA has been taking several steps over the past few months to disarm.

Obviously the situation isn't perfect. But more violence in that situation would only flare things up again.

When America says "we're going after terrorism", you have to bear in mind that the solution will not always be the same.

Sometimes it'll take diplomacy...sometimes economic measures...and sometimes military measures. It just so happens that on this occasion, we've seen military measures against Al-Qaeda.[/color]

[Genkai]

yes, i agree with james, the IRA have shown signs of receeding, and attacks would lead to rioting and more violence.:(

[Mist]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by genkai_yyh [/i]
[B]yes, i agree with james, the IRA have shown signs of receeding, and attacks would lead to rioting and more violence.:( [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson][size=1] Of course the IRA have shown signs of receeding, but the fact that they still exist peeves me out a little. Who knows, maybe they're planning something... (Been hearing too many conspiracy theories lately...)[/color][/size]

[Mnemolth]

I've tried so very very hard to resist the temptation to trawl through this territory again, but alas I feel I must say something. I'm not sure why. I just feel I need to.

The American 'War or Terrorism' is a misnomer. Terror is a tactic. Its been around as long as war has been around. Practised by both state and rebels alike. From the Romans to William the Conqueror to the Nazis, to the VietCong, to the IRA, the use of violence against civilians to achieve political ends has a long history and is a well recognised strategy of warfare. To believe it is something new, and all of a sudden completely wrong, is a mistake. And besides how do you wage war on a tactic?

No, the so-called war against terrorism is in reality a war against militant fundamentalist Islam. And this too is nothing new. Fundamentalist Islamic forces have waged a war on the West as early as 1979 when the Shar of Iran was ousted (a monumental blunder of US foriegn policy, but let's not revisit that argument), and furious Iranians laid siege to the US embassy.

However, only 9/11 brought it home to Americans and the rest of the Western world how far this war had reached. It would be easy to succumb to Huntington's Clash of Civilisation thesis, namely that cultures will clash and that the dominant influence of cultures will be religion. Go search on google for those of you have the time and inclination. Soak up what you can because some of it is insightful but don't be too quick to swallow it whole.

No, rather I would advise you to, if you are really interested, to go to your local library and read. I wouldn't recommend the Internet until you've read enough from published works to have some idea, because, quite frankly, the Internet is a hotbed of misinformation. Its easy and quick, but exceedingly deceptive. It only really good as a resource when you know what you're looking for and can spot the bull and ignore it.

What has all this got to do with you? Its all academic and just a fun way of expressing yourself via a Board right? Its just about debating right? Yes, all this is true but this topic is a little different.

America is waging a war against militant Islam, and it is a war right across the globe. From Xinjiang province in China, to Jolo in the Phillipines, from Chechnya in Russia to Sudan in Africa, from Algiera to Indonesia, the battle is to quell the rising tide of violent fundamentalist Islam.

Its not about terrorism per se, though the US will keep that as its public face, and will, on occasion give lip service to it. Its not about ETA and the fight for an independent Basque state in Spain, or the Tamil Tigers and their deadly civil war in Sri Lanka. Of course, greater pressure will be placed on these groups to lay down their arms, but this is merely a side effect of the main battle. And the main battle?

The big fight is within Islam, between those who wish to marry the religion with modernity, and those who wish to marry the faith with politics and identity.

And on the sidelines, but in the thick of it, are people like you and me. The West. We, with our proud capitalist liberal democracies, our rule of law and the sepraration of church and state, our obssession with individualism and its corollary, human rights.

All these things are an anathema to fundamnetalist Islam. For two centuries, Islamic faith and identity have been battered by the whims of the colonial powers. Muslims have been pushed to the fringe. And now, they are barging their way back into the centre of world culture and politics.

A few centuries ago, a similar battle was waged in Europe. It was about the separation of the state and the church. It was called the Reformation. It took decades.

Muslims are now going through what Christiandom went through. And it will take them decades to sort it out as well. The Muslim world is in crisis. And like any culture in crisis it clings to its identity even more fiercely. This is the appeal of Osama bin Laden.

OBL is not just a terrorist, he is an idea. Here is a man whose money could easily have bought him a palatial house and a comfortable bed, and yet he chooses to live in a cave and sleep on the floor. America is waging a war not just against terrorism, its against an idea.

9/11 made sure everyone in power in Washington understood this. An idea this powerful does not die with a man, it cannot be killed by a bullet and it cannot be bombed into submission.

This idea of a world Muslim community, and in particular, of a Islamic State is new. If you went back more than a couple of centuries you will find not such concept in the then Muslim world. The idea of an Islamic State is a reaction against the encroaching western culture. People want a way out. They don't want a MacDonald in every corner, or porn in every hotel room. And for the Muslim world, with the demise of the Cold War, the fall of the Left, there is no counter to the captialist market economy and the liberal democratic political system. There doesn't seem to be any other clear alternative. And so they fall back on the only thing they have left, their identity, their faith.

You may look at the above and say to it is all useless banter. It may or may not be interesting or entertaining banter but it doesn't really matter to ME. Like most topics here, it may or may not be a good way to pass time and express myself, but that's all it is, there's nothing 'real' nor anything that will directly apply to my life in any substantial way. It may or may not make interesting cocktail conversation at dinner parties but that's all it is.

You'd be wrong. And I'll tell you why.

9/11/01 is a marked date when the world woke up, and found itself in a deep war, just as intense as the Cold War had been, and just as dangerous if not more so.

I support the War on Terrorism despite many misgivings about how it is conducted because I cherish my freedoms. My values are Western, I believe in human rights, in individuality, in, as one of your founding fathers wrote, 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'. Militant Muslims have a different view of the world. They believe that faith and politics cannot be separated, they believe that the community is greater than the individual and that a capitalist market is souless.

Their worldview and my worldview cannot co-exist. Something has to give. In time, Muslims will sort it out amongst themselves. But for the time being, we are their enemy, and they are our enemy. And we must know this and acknowledge it, because the danger is very real.

And this is why YOU should care about 9/11.

Long after this post has been purged from your memory, long after this forum has faded from the Internet, after you have graduated high school or university, after you are married and have children of your own, this war will still persist.

In a year or two, when Al-Qaida may have been neutralised, there may be a lull in the 'fighting', and you may think the war has been won. You'd be wrong. We're not talking months or years here, we're taking decades.

Its a depressing thought.

[James]

[color=royalblue]That's a nice, in-depth post...and you're right about why people should care about 9/11. And yes, the "war on terror" is not against [i]all[/i] terror groups. Only those that affect the United States.

But nevertheless, I think we have to ask ourselves if a war with fundamentalist religious dogma is worthwhile. I believe that it is worthwhile on all fronts and for many reasons. Not just because of the militancy of certain organizations and the physical danger they pose, but also because of the misinformation and continual string of half-truths that are used to perpetuate the fundamentalism through the generations (ie: the various religious schools in Saudi Arabia for example).[/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo]I apologize if I came off a little on the 'cold-hearted' side in what I said. The fact that you comapred me as to the "MTV Generation" is what really caught my attention, since that is pretty much everything I despise. I'm not saying so much "This is boring, let's move on." But more to the sense that I am just hearing the same things over and over again about this. Quite frankly, to me, it's getting rather irritating. Especially since I'm not the biggest fan of politics. I just wish the media and the government would let people deal with this on there own now. When the event of September 11th happened, they cradled America and telling them that everything is going to be "OK", and that they'll do whatever it takes to bring the people responsible to justice. For the first month or two after the attacks, this was pretty much their main message. After that, they told us to just try and move along with our lives. Yet still today, they hold our hands in attempt to comfort. Especially on the anniversary. AOL had this thing where you would "light a candle" online for those who died during the attacks. Then they would show a map of the enitre U.S.A. and show where all the candles were across the country. Indeed there were many, and sure it was a nice thing to do, I did it myself for the sake of it. But it's just another way for the media and government to keep a firm grasp on the general public and "baby" us like we don't know how to carry on with it. They should let people remember the day in their own way. We don't [i]need[/i] to hear news broadcasts all over the radio, and video shots from the day all over the TV. It pretty much puts us back where we were since that was exactly what was going on back on that day.

Bleh, I'd continue but I'm about to be kicked offline due to parental controls..[/color]

[James]

[color=royalblue]I understand where you're coming from, Piro.

But also, I think that every individual is different. If the media ignored September 11 and failed to provide any comfort or support, there would be people complaining about that aspect as well.

And that's where freedom comes into the picture. You're free to disregard the media if you so choose. And those who perhaps want that extra comfort can seek it however they like.

I imagine that if a family member of mine were killed in those attacks, it would be very difficult for me to see the constant repeats of those planes hitting the towers over and over. From that perspective, I think it's more traumatizing than positive.

But having said that, I think that this is a great chance for the media to open its eyes and focus on a whole variety of related issues.

Now more than ever, Americans are watching international news...and there is more of a media focus on the issue of terrorism and religious fundamentalism all over the world. And that's a good thing; it constantly reminds us not to be dismissive or complacent. And it also allows us to see how this issue came about...and why it's so important to deal with.

These days I think it's really easy for people to just tune out and say "who cares?". I understand that this is not necessarily your point of view, but for many other people, they don't see a reason or a need to learn anything about these issues.

And [i]that[/i] is one of the dangers. Intelligence, knowledge and information is most definitely the key in this situation. And in some cases, the media is in a good position to provide that (though as I mentioned with the towers...it's not always the case).[/color]

[GinnyLyn]

After going through the entire thread, with many of my thoughts spoken for me, I simply have to point to James' posts. That's exactly where my thought process is at this moment.

In a semi-touchy subject like this, it's hard to say something without sending someone else off. (Sorry, but I'm guilty of that, too.) Killing innocents is wrong. Period. And, despite all of our claims of brilliant technology, America's greatest downfall [i]will[/i] be ignorance. (Guilty of that as well.)

And while this whole situation seems out of our hands, I personally think if there was some way we would be willing to get up from our chairs, and actually see the outside world (guilty of not even knowing her next day neighbors vs. kids from all over the world via Net), and become involved in it, there would be a chance to "protect" (not the best word at all, but all I got) ourselves from future problems. Not all of them, but at least maybe, somehow, enough to see ourselves as flaw-filled human beings. Enough to see that we need to stop living in the "me me me me" attitude (a widely accepted yet terrible attitude here in America).

[do not be offended or go flaming] I may be a Christian, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna pop you in the head with a weapon for not believing with me. [/end comment]

[James]

[color=royalblue]Ginny is exactly right. I personally don't blame America itself for being so isolated...largely because it has been a series of incremental historical issues that has lead to that isolation.

And I tend to find myself defending America more than accusing it; afterall, as I've said before, America is responsible for producing so many great things. And it has contributed so positively to the world in a broad variety of ways.

But still, we all have to realize that we can [i]never[/i] not know enough about the world, if that makes sense.

America didn't deserve September 11 at all. Nobody deserves that. But perhaps this is a great opportunity to reevaluate all our long held positions on certain issues...and maybe now we can begin to proactively learn more about the various threats that we face.[/color]

[Justin]

I'll tell you one subject that'll get me fired up: This one. I'll try to remain as level in my opinion as I can, but with my recent conversion to Christianity, I can make no promises of completely seeing both sides on an even scale.

First of all, I concur with most everyone here. There's no way to justify 9/11. You can make as many [i]excuses[/i] as you want; but you can't [i]justify[/i] it.

Frankly, I'm upset that several nations of the world condemed the US for striking back, but as soon as someone strikes them, who is it that they call?

I could go more in-depth and include my religous views and the things I've learn about Islam recently, but I won't simply because they're so one-sided. I may continue later, but I have to go now.

-Justin

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]But also, I think that every individual is different. If the media ignored September 11 and failed to provide any comfort or support, there would be people complaining about that aspect as well.[/color][/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]That was one thing I was going to get at. Obviously if a person was there, and/or had a relative or friend that died in the attacks, they are going to want the media to do certain things. I'm just saying the media should only tend to those that [i]want[/i] to be tended to. They can do such by organizing little "get-togethers" in each city/state in memory of that day, and the people that died. Those who want to come, can. Those who don't feel the need to, don't have to and don't have to hear about it on the radio or news every ten seconds.

People like me would rather here about what we are doing about it [i]now[/i]. Like, what is our current standing on this country? What about this? What about that? We [i]don't[/i] want them to tell/show us something we already know/have seen.

I hope this makes more sense.[/color]

[James]

[color=royalblue]I agree with you in that sense.

The media coverage has been struggling because of the simple fact that there isn't much new information. People do want to know about September 11...but they don't want to hear what they already know.

So, the [i]better[/i] media coverage is the coverage that looks at other areas...such as how the lives of the victims have been affected and other related topics (like the investigation and such).

The thing I don't like about the media coverage is that some media outlets are struggling to find something new to talk about. So they simply rehash the same video and stuff...and that's not only in bad taste, it's also bad journalism.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B]Does anyone here consider the Afgans who died attacking America, martyrs?
I am not sure if people will be able to look past the fact that they killed so many innocents, but still. If they died for what they belive in, for their faith, are they martyrs? I hope you can look past the fact that people in America died for something they had no idea about, but I want some interesting discussion. All this talk about remembering 9\11 has got me thinkin. I was just wondering what everyone else thinks about this. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well... yes.. they were martyrs [i]of their particular faith[/i].. if you count a martyr as someone who dies for religious ideas..

I'd give the reasons for my decision on that point, but they may offend some people, [i]despite[/i] being matters of [b]fact[/b] rather than opinion.. if anyone wants to know my reasons, PM me and I will get back to you as soon as possible (I don't get on much at the moment though)

[vegeta rocker]

i wouldnt consider them martys, because some of them didnt know they were suppossed to go down with the plane, and they were heard arguing over peoples cell phones. Of course some did know what they were in for so i guess some would be considered as that.

[Genkai]

hmmm.... i guess that america could've done a better job of their response to the attacks. we dropped food, but then we stopped, though the "war" continues.... i mean, i think that at the bottom of many very important people' minds, a "good image" is important, so they'll try to make themselves or our country look better than we are....hmm..im just writing exacly wat's going through my head right now, so....forgive me if im saying something stupid......