Anime Vegeta the Cheata

[Kneeko Artilles]

I would like to clear up a nasty piece of work that has been going around for a long time. That being that Vegeta cheated to reach Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 4.

Super Saiyan 2, Vegeta reached this Level before Goku even came back to Earth to compete in the tournament. This is proved in these ways:-

1. Vegeta constantly claims that he was far stonger than Gohan and Goku, and if you ask me, I don't really thing a Super Saiyan could be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2. I have taken Gohan's lack of Training into account, but he would still be stronger according to my calculations.

2. If he really did transform due to Babidi possessing him, at what point did he gain enough anger to transform. Unless my eyes are fooling me, at the point when he powered up and the blue lightning started surrounding his body, he was in a fairly calm state.

3. I do not believe this rumour I found:- Vegeta powered up to Super Saiyan 2 after being possessed, because he transformed into Super Saiyan while being possessed, and was simply trying to power up to it again. (I did edit the spelling and made it a bit more understandable). Basically, I don't think even Vegeta's arrogent and ignorrent enough to NOT know when he's in Super Saiyan.

Super Saiyan 4, what comes just before this... Golden Oozaru:-
Again, Vegeta did not cheat to reach this form. If anyone tells you that, it's a steaming pile of BS, and I will tell you why. Turning Oozaru is a natural Saiyan ability, that all Saiyans hold. Unlike Chibi-Goku, Vegeta did not have a tail to turn Golden Oozaru. Bulma used the Brute Ray on Vegeta so that he could turn Golden Oozaru, not SS4. Vegeta was then able to control his Oozaru form and turn SS4 by HIMSELF. Most fan sites on the net think that Bulma zapped Vegeta with the Brute Ray and an instant SS4 transformation took place. The people that think that obviously never watched DBGT and know nothing of what they're talking about.

If anyone has anything to prove these facts wrong, please tell me (Politely), and I will give my opinion on it. Other people are COMPLETELY welcome to give their opinions, as this is not MY MB, it's just that I provided this evidence, and as such, hold myself in a better position to clarify my ideas, if ya know what I mean!

[Guest Matt]

1. Vegeta constantly claims that he was far stonger than Gohan and Goku, and if you ask me, I don't really thing a Super Saiyan could be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2. I have taken Gohan's lack of Training into account, but he would still be stronger according to my calculations.

[color=red][b]Goku was the strongest after he came back from the dead for a day. He could already go ssj3, he just chose not to.[/b][/color]

2. If he really did transform due to Babidi possessing him, at what point did he gain enough anger to transform. Unless my eyes are fooling me, at the point when he powered up and the blue lightning started surrounding his body, he was in a fairly calm state.

[color=red][b]When Babidi possessed him, it gave him a surge of power. If you listened, Vegeta said that the only reason he allowed babadi to take control of him is because it would give him enough power to defeat goku.[/b][/color]

3. I do not believe this rumour I found:- Vegeta powered up to Super Saiyan 2 after being possessed, because he transformed into Super Saiyan while being possessed, and was simply trying to power up to it again. (I did edit the spelling and made it a bit more understandable). Basically, I don't think even Vegeta's arrogent and ignorrent enough to NOT know when he's in Super Saiyan.

[color=red][b]Ok, I don't get what you said there at all. But i will try. I think he did go ssj2 after being possessed by babadi.[/b][/color]

Super Saiyan 4, what comes just before this... Golden Oozaru:-
Again, Vegeta did not cheat to reach this form. If anyone tells you that, it's a steaming pile of BS, and I will tell you why. Turning Oozaru is a natural Saiyan ability, that all Saiyans hold. Unlike Chibi-Goku, Vegeta did not have a tail to turn Golden Oozaru. Bulma used the Brute Ray on Vegeta so that he could turn Golden Oozaru, not SS4. Vegeta was then able to control his Oozaru form and turn SS4 by HIMSELF. Most fan sites on the net think that Bulma zapped Vegeta with the Brute Ray and an instant SS4 transformation took place. The people that think that obviously never watched DBGT and know nothing of what they're talking about.

[color=red][b]The brute ray gave Vegeta a ton of power. Vegeta never had the natural power to go ssj3. He needed a little extra boost to pass it and go on.[/b][/color]

[Justin]

Well, I'll say this much: I personally believe that Vejita did not turn SSJ2 until he became Majin Vejita. Now, you ask "Well, then, how was he stringer than Gohan?" I have two possible answer for that question: A) WE all know that Gohan had grown much weaker due to lack of training. It's possible that this lax caused him to lose his power. It works the same way as in real-life. If you work out you get muscles, and then you stopping working working out, you lose them.

Or B) Vejita simply wasn't stronger than Gohan. Anyone who's seen one episode can tell you that he's got the biggest mouth in the series.

Now, for the whole SSJ4 deal. My counterthesis to this arguement is much simpler. Vejita DID cheat to get to SSJ4, if you break it down. He used a tool to become the Golden Oozaru. He couldn't have done it on his own due to his lack of a tail. Without becoming a Golden Oozaru, he wouldn't have become SSJ4. Therefore, without using a tool, he wouldn't have made the transformation to SSJ4.

My facts might be fuzzy, though...seeing as how I haven't watched a full episode of DB/Z/GT in forever, lol.

-Justin

[Kneeko Artilles]

Goku was the strongest after he came back from the dead for a day. He could already go ssj3, he just chose not to.

We know that, but at the time, Vegeta did not, remember how surprised he is to see the transformation when Goku powers up to it when fighting Buu.

When Babidi possessed him, it gave him a surge of power. If you listened, Vegeta said that the only reason he allowed babadi to take control of him is because it would give him enough power to defeat goku.

Yes, but raw power is what allows the transformation to Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks reached Super Saiyan 3, and never reached Super Saiyan 2 (As far as I can tell!), so why didn't Vegeta go Super Saiyan 3 instead??
Also, according to NEARLY ALL fansites, you need to be or pure heart, have at least partial saiyan dna, and a sudden burst of extreme anger to transform into all the forms of super saiyan except super saiyan 3.

The brute ray gave Vegeta a ton of power. Vegeta never had the natural power to go ssj3. He needed a little extra boost to pass it and go on.

If Goku could go Super Saiyan 3, and Vegeta was more powerful than Goku was then as a Super Saiyan 2, then doesn't that prove that he has the natural talent, all Saiyans were born with the ability to transform into all the Super Saiyan Levels, it was only the Z Fighters that harnessed these transformations.

Now, for the whole SSJ4 deal. My counterthesis to this arguement is much simpler. Vejita DID cheat to get to SSJ4, if you break it down. He used a tool to become the Golden Oozaru. He couldn't have done it on his own due to his lack of a tail. Without becoming a Golden Oozaru, he wouldn't have become SSJ4. Therefore, without using a tool, he wouldn't have made the transformation to SSJ4.

Thing is, when the hell did Vegeta lose his tail permanently. To lose a tail, a saiyan must have it either wished away, or pulled out at the very bottom of the root, and even after Piccolo did that to Gohan, his grew back. Vegeta's tail was only ever cut off by Yajirobe's sword (As far as we know), and never rooted or wished away. I know you can counter this argument by saying this: Then when did it grow back? Or something to that effect. My point is, that all Bulma's machine had to do, was to trick his mind into thinking that Vegeta had a tail and was looking at Moonlight, nothing else. As a by-product, his transformation was weaker than Goku's, and he went Golden Oozaru because he had previously gained enough power to become one.

[Guest Matt]

Yes, but raw power is what allows the transformation to Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks reached Super Saiyan 3, and never reached Super Saiyan 2 (As far as I can tell!), so why didn't Vegeta go Super Saiyan 3 instead??
Also, according to NEARLY ALL fansites, you need to be or pure heart, have at least partial saiyan dna, and a sudden burst of extreme anger to transform into all the forms of super saiyan except super saiyan 3.

[color=red][b]Brolly is not pure of heart and he is a ssj. And gotenks went ssj3 because he had the power to. If you can go ssj3, why bother going ssj2?[/b][/color]

If Goku could go Super Saiyan 3, and Vegeta was more powerful than Goku was then as a Super Saiyan 2, then doesn't that prove that he has the natural talent, all Saiyans were born with the ability to transform into all the Super Saiyan Levels, it was only the Z Fighters that harnessed these transformations.

[color=red][b]Vegeta was not more powerful then Goku was as ssj2. There is no proof to say he was or was not more powerful. The fight ended because Goku was too trusing.[/b][/color]

Thing is, when the hell did Vegeta lose his tail permanently. To lose a tail, a saiyan must have it either wished away, or pulled out at the very bottom of the root, and even after Piccolo did that to Gohan, his grew back. Vegeta's tail was only ever cut off by Yajirobe's sword (As far as we know), and never rooted or wished away. I know you can counter this argument by saying this: Then when did it grow back? Or something to that effect. My point is, that all Bulma's machine had to do, was to trick his mind into thinking that Vegeta had a tail and was looking at Moonlight, nothing else. As a by-product, his transformation was weaker than Goku's, and he went Golden Oozaru because he had previously gained enough power to become one.

[color=red][b]*sigh* Gohan's tail grew back because he was a kid. Saiyan children can grow their tails back, but not adults. And Yadjarobie(sp?) cut the tail off near enough to the root that it worked fine. Bulma's machine did not "trick vegeta's mind into thinking he had a tail". It was a [i]BRUTE[/i] ray. it gave hime [i]BRUTE[/i] strength, hence the word [i]BRUTE[/i]. He became a Golden Oozaru because of the brute ray giving him so much power.[/b][/color]


[color=red][b]Bah, we need TN here to set the story straight. :p [/b][/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo]To begin with, let's just keep in mind that these are [i]theories[/i] and not [i]facts[/i]. They have not been 100% proven.

Starting with your theory on when Vegeta reached the level of Super Saiya-jin 2. It is pretty much understood in the show that he reaches this when Babidi posesses him. I am not saying that what you said is complete BS, but somethings you mentioned are a bit weary:[/color][quote][b]Vegeta constantly claims that he was far stonger than Gohan and Goku, and if you ask me, I don't really thing a Super Saiyan could be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2. I have taken Gohan's lack of Training into account, but he would still be stronger according to my calculations.[/b][/quote][color=indigo]Vegeta was very much stronger than Gohan, this was, as you said, due to Gohan's lack of training. When Gohan fought Dabura, he still had trouble fighting him even at the level 2. I would think saying he was stronger thean Kakarot would be a bit of an exaggeration, but that's not really the point here.[/color][quote][b]If he really did transform due to Babidi possessing him, at what point did he gain enough anger to transform. Unless my eyes are fooling me, at the point when he powered up and the blue lightning started surrounding his body, he was in a fairly calm state.[/b][/quote][color=indigo]A person can very easily be calm on the outside and enfuriated on the inside. That's pretty much how Vegeta has lived his whole life. He'd only really release his anger in a dramatic battle (his first fight with Kakarot, when Cell 'killed' Trunks). Still he had all of those repressed memories and grudges swarming in his head, then Babidi's mind tricks brought all those thought back to his conscious. He fought them at first but then gave in.

Finally, when Vegeta fought Kakarot, he admitted to letting Babidi control him. He explained that he saw the power it gave to Yamu and the other guy, and marvelled at the thought of what it could do for him. Meaning he knew it would give him the power surge needed to attain the next level.


As for your debate on the whole Super 4 thing, I have no disagreements with that. In fact, I very much agree (except for the part about tricking his mind to think it had a tail). I never saw it like that before. :)[/color]

[Kneeko Artilles]

It was a BRUTE ray. it gave hime BRUTE strength, hence the word BRUTE. He became a Golden Oozaru because of the brute ray giving him so much power.

Actually, and I know this for a fact, Saiyans transform at the sight of the Full Moon, because it emmits things called "Brute Waves", these are the very same waves that make Warewolf Transformations occur. I've done my research on that before, for a little mythiology project. They do NOT, give out brote strength, it has a similar effect to the Saiyan Power Ball (Moon Simulator), it emmits tha brute waves needed to make the saiyan's transformation occur.

I can see your side, I am not filled with pride like Vegeta, I can accept what you are saying, and in a way, yes, it could be seen as true, but I think we'll call this one a draw. I've given my case, you've given yours, but with all the people out there who have been brought up with this theory, that would give you more people in favour, so in numbers, you'd probably win, because not many people can see what I've said at first glance.

[SSJ Pud]

Is it jus me, or was there a thread on this very same topic awhile back?

[img]http://geocities.com/bannerhost/banner1.gif[/img]

[Kneeko Artilles]

Well if there was, i wasn't here then, and I wouldn't have known about it

[Chaos]

To start off, I'd like to deal with the arguement of Vegita going SSJ2. I'm just gonna copy and paste an IM with Charlie-kins.


SuperSayian4444: He's proving what we've been saying all alon--...He did.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: wrong
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Babi-dee helped him reach SSJ2
SuperSayian4444: Oh? What facts do you have? (I love this part of our conversations)
SuperSayian4444: Wrongo, muchacho
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Well
SuperSayian4444: At what point was Vegita anguished enough to release that much energy and transform?
SuperSayian4444: Are you talking about when they were in the ship? Wrong. He simple powered up to SSJ
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: What are you talking about? lol. give me a chance
SuperSayian4444: When Kakarot went SSJ2, Vegita did that Big Bang-like stance and powered up.
SuperSayian4444: I'm saving us both the trouble..;P
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: He saw that Gokou had reached a new level when he used his power in the ship.
SuperSayian4444: In so many words, no. In a form, YES.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: And he knew that he needed Babi-dee to make him stronger. He even said that it would erase the difference
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: He even said that Gokou has a natural talent that he doesn't have
SuperSayian4444: Vegita said/thought that Kakarot had pushed his power in SSJ even further.
SuperSayian4444: NOT that he was surpassed.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: PLUs, Gokou had to be SSJ2 to beat Pikuhan
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: You're obviously basing your knowledge off the dubs
SuperSayian4444: Did you actually SEE him go SSJ2, when you were watching the fight? Noper.
SuperSayian4444: Nope, nope, and nope. ;P
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: I have the subbed versions and Vegeta claims Gokou is stronger than Gohan when he beat cell
SuperSayian4444: Straight froma subbed tape that I got off Goijita.net.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Plus
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Gokou shows Buu all the forms
SuperSayian4444: Your point? Vegita, in his SSJ2 state, was the same.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: He would have had to go SSJ2 just to beat Pikuhan
SuperSayian4444: Not so fast there, buddy.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Nah, if he was SSJ2, why would he have let Babi-dee possess him?
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: He's much too proud
SuperSayian4444: Vegita said it himself, that Kakarot had pushed his power even further (or is it farther?) in his normal SSJ state (Cuz, thusfar, we didn't SEE Kakarot go SSJ2)
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Ha, your buddy piromunkie doesn't know how to use the word "weary" lol. :-)
SuperSayian4444: O-o
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: , but somethings you mentioned are a bit weary:
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: weary means fatigued or tired
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: OR
SuperSayian4444: Well, he's a flaming monkie, so he can make mistakes like that. XD
SuperSayian4444: Well.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: lol
SuperSayian4444: some of the facts might not be too strong/backed-up.
SuperSayian4444: But I see what you mean
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Hmm
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Also
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Gokou didn't go SSJ2 until he had to fight Vegeta because he didn't want to hurt the man's pride
SuperSayian4444: But then why did he? You saw the look on his face when Vegita went to level 2.
SuperSayian4444: Kakarot was plain gangsta TRIPPIN.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Nah, actually
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: In the Japanese version, he told Vegeta prior to the fight, that he could easily defeat him using his full power
SuperSayian4444: Also, the power surge that the B-mister gave Vegita was just to close the gap
SuperSayian4444: Which puts your last comment to rest.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Dude, being possessed allowed him to "surpass his boundaries" and achieve new levels.
SuperSayian4444: Yes, he had boundaries, but by no means a new hurdle to jump.
SuperSayian4444: The boundaries that were cleared put him at level with Kakarot's SSJ2 form.
SuperSayian4444: NOT putting him at a new level.
SuperSayian4444: But look at it this way.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: What I'm saying is, that if he was already SSJ2, he wouldn't become possessed.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: It wouldn't be worth it
SuperSayian4444: When did Vegita, regardless of when he first went SSJ2, go SSJ2 in that fight?
SuperSayian4444: After he banished Baba-dee from his mind
SuperSayian4444: And we saw the power surge. It was great enough to force Vegita to go SSJ.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: He was Super Saiya-jin 2, right when he became possessed.
SuperSayian4444: Nope. Look at his hair, and the flux of the electricity-like ki around his body.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Well, I'm gonna respond to this thread and we'll see how you fair.
SuperSayian4444: Mind if I just copy and paste this IM?
SuperSayian4444: I'm too lazy to type all this again..--
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Nah, go ahead


Now that I've rotted out your minds, let me address the SSJ4 matter. Bebi Vegita was blasted by Bulma (Who to the best of my memory was controlled by Bebi as well) with the Brute Ray. And when Bebi Vegita went Golden Oozaru, Bebi couldn't handle the amount of control and Vegita was able to take over. So, you really can't point fingers at Vegita or Bulma on this one.

Yay, that was way too long and drawn out..><

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kneeko Artilles [/i]
[B]
1. Vegeta constantly claims that he was far stonger than Gohan and Goku, and if you ask me, I don't really thing a Super Saiyan could be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2. I have taken Gohan's lack of Training into account, but he would still be stronger according to my calculations.[/Quote][/B]

Well, [I]claiming[/I] means very little. Vegeta's pride deceives him quite often. At that point in the series, he's pretty reluctant to admit inferiority to [I]anyone[/I].

Anyway, he claims that he can beat Gohan, primarily because the boy had lost his fighting instinct and timing. Combat ability rests on more than just strength.

Even when it is confirmed that Vegeta had reached SSJ2, he [I]claims[/I] that he is capable of defeating Fat Buu. His arrogance leads to blindness.

Plus, look at Vegeta's track record. His premature idea that he had reached SSJ during the Furiza saga, costed him his life.

[B][Quote]2. If he really did transform due to Babidi possessing him, at what point did he gain enough anger to transform. Unless my eyes are fooling me, at the point when he powered up and the blue lightning started surrounding his body, he was in a fairly calm state.[/b][/Quote]

Babi-dee's "spell" was anger inducing. You see, he infused Vegeta with a greater sense of anger.

From what I remember, Vegeta even called Kaioshin an "*******." Furthermore, Vegeta obviously had a lot of anger stirring in him prior to the spell. It was clearly evident during and following Gohan's fight with Doubler.

Vegeta was obviously frustrated that Gokou and Gohan had surpassed him and he lamented over the fact that Gokou had saved his life so many times. It was "unforgivable."

Babi-dee's spell, ignited this hatred, [I]frustration[/I], lust, anger, and [B]humiliation[/B] and increased it. He exploited the evil lurking in Vegeta's soul, muliplying it enough so that Vegeta could surpass his boundaries.

If Vegeta was already SSJ2, he would not have succumed to Babi-dee. You must realize how much it must have taken for such a prideful individual to accept assistance. Why do so for such a miniscule increase?

[B][Quote]Super Saiyan 4, what comes just before this... Golden Oozaru:-Again, Vegeta did not cheat to reach this form. If anyone tells you that, it's a steaming pile of BS, and I will tell you why. Turning Oozaru is a natural Saiyan ability, that all Saiyans hold. Unlike Chibi-Goku, Vegeta did not have a tail to turn Golden Oozaru. Bulma used the Brute Ray on Vegeta so that he could turn Golden Oozaru, not SS4. Vegeta was then able to control his Oozaru form and turn SS4 by HIMSELF. Most fan sites on the net think that Bulma zapped Vegeta with the Brute Ray and an instant SS4 transformation took place. The people that think that obviously never watched DBGT and know nothing of what they're talking about.[/Quote][/B]

Vegeta did not consciously cheat. However, he would have never attained the form of Golden Oozaru without the "brute" beam. In fact, the "brute" beam, as you call it, was an Oozaru Ray. Its purpose is to change a saiya-jin whose tail has been cut off. It changes the dna allowing the saiyan to manipulate an Oozaru transformed state. Thus, vegeta in fact did cheat since he attained the Oozaru state by a ray and not growing back his tail like Gokou So,he was not able to transform into a Super Saiya-jin 4 without the beam.

SSJ4 is the true form of Super Saiya-jin that the legend speaks of. Only [I]one[/I] may reach such a level at any given time.

Lastly, while fighting Ii Shenron, Vegeta asked Bulma to use the beam to help him transform into a Super Saiya-jin 4; since the beam was broken, she couldn't blast him and he couldn't transform.

Gokou questioned him about this and frustrated, Vegeta replied "Not everyone can have the talents you have."

So, while Vegeta controlled Golden Oozaru, he was not capable of
transforming into a Super Saiya-jin 4 at any given time.

[Quote][B]If anyone has anything to prove these facts wrong, please tell me (Politely), and I will give my opinion on it. Other people are COMPLETELY welcome to give their opinions, as this is not MY MB, it's just that I provided this evidence, and as such, hold myself in a better position to clarify my ideas, if ya know what I mean! [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey, your theories are nice. Tis certainly a creative and thoughtful post.

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SuperSayian [/i]
[B]ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Ha, your buddy piromunkie doesn't know how to use the word "weary" lol. :-)
SuperSayian4444: O-o
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: , but somethings you mentioned are a bit weary:
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: weary means fatigued or tired
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: OR
SuperSayian4444: Well, he's a flaming monkie, so he can make mistakes like that. XD
SuperSayian4444: Well.
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: lol
SuperSayian4444: some of the facts might not be too strong/backed-up.
SuperSayian4444: But I see what you mean
ElCrazyWhiteBoy: Hmm[/b][/quote][color=indigo]That was perhaps the best part of the conversation, lol. :p

Yes, when I said "weary" I meant it in a more figurative sense. Instead of saying the person is tired, I was saying what he said was "tired". Meaning they weren't completely thought out. Not being able to think right is a side effect of fatigue. So it works, you just have to think about it for a second.


[i]Anyway[/i], quite an interesting conversation... Neh, do you really believe that Vegeta never attained Super Saiya-jin 2, or did you take that side for the sake of debate? Lol.[/color]

[Chaos]

What I'm saying, my dear primate, is that Vegita had ascended to Super Saiya-jin 2 BEFORE his encounter with Baba-dee (Or is it Bab[i]-dee? Jeez, this just ain't my night). My proof? The fact that it was timing of when Vegita he transformed. He would've done it in the ship if Babi-dee had really made him transform. But what does he do instead?

He transforms right after Kakarot does like he was pimp-slappin Bulma. Easy 1, 2, 4. Simple as that. ;P [Yes, I realise that three comes after two, not four. That's a joke, see. The point that Gohan went through all that crap with Cell, and for me to say that Vegita just popped up in as a SSJ2 would be stupid of me. TOO stupid of me. And this concludes yet another one of my ramblings]..

[Andrew]

[I]Although I'm not as educated as most others on Dragonball matters I'm going to give my little opinion.[/I]

[I]Correct me if I'm wrong but the entire purpose of Babi-dee's mind control is to bring out all the anger, frustration and (Key word here) EVIL in a person's heart. I believe that Vegeta had the necassary power to become a SSJ2 before Babi-dee, but he couldn't harness it because he didn't have the anger aspect he needed (And indeed all Saiyans need) to go to the next level. All Babi-dee did was to make Vegeta Evil again, which unlocked the power within him[/I]

[I]Again, I'm not too educated when it comes to GT but I'll try and add my opinion.[/I]

[I]Vegeta may have well cheated, but didn't Kakkarot cheat as well? There's no way He could have grown back his tail because he had it permanently removed. Being turned into a kid made him get his tail back, so Kakkarot cheated to become Golden Oozaru too, or am I just rambling? Anyway, that's what I think[/I]

[Vegitto4]

Why is this still going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My god people!!!!! Drop it. We know he cheated, The one who started this thread is obviously a moron at some points, and multiple people have corrected him already. DROP IT!!!!!!!

[Kneeko Artilles]

Actually, for your information, I don't know if you have heard of this site, The Dawn of Dragonball, closely linked to Planet Namek, both amazing websites. Well, the Dawn of Dragonball, was what made me realise the truth about Vegeta, before I read his comments (And believe me, he knows his ****!), I thought like you. The last thing I have to say, is that, remember when Vegeta said "Well, I'm glad to see you're more powerful the Gohan when he fought Cell", both Goku and Gohan were SS2, so Goku as a SS2 was more powerful, Vegeta had seen Goku's power in SS2 against Yakon, and realised he was inferior, so he let Babidi posses him to increase his actual power, not his transformation level!

[Chaos]

One of my main points, supported by another. Take that, common sense!

And Vegitto, that comment wasn't the best stunt you could've pulled. First off, this is a DEBATE. Meaning that we can bring up our own ideas (Hopefully those ideas supported by facts and strong proof). And secondly, to the point that he "cheated", in a respect, yes. With Babi-dee, he did allow the deminuative magician to infest his mind, but with Bebi, that was a completely different circumstance. So watch it.

[Guest QuickSilver]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MajinVegeta [/i]
[B][I]Correct me if I'm wrong but the entire purpose of Babi-dee's mind control is to bring out all the anger, frustration and (Key word here) EVIL in a person's heart. I believe that Vegeta had the necassary power to become a SSJ2 before Babi-dee, but he couldn't harness it because he didn't have the anger aspect he needed (And indeed all Saiyans need) to go to the next level. All Babi-dee did was to make Vegeta Evil again, which unlocked the power within him[/I][/QUOTE][/B]

Yeah but, the power of Babidi also made him stronger it didnt just make him angry.


[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MajinVegeta [/i][B][I]Vegeta may have well cheated, but didn't Kakkarot cheat as well? There's no way He could have grown back his tail because he had it permanently removed. Being turned into a kid made him get his tail back, so Kakkarot cheated to become Golden Oozaru too.[/I] [/B][/QUOTE]

yeah but dont you have to plan to cheat? Goku did not choose to become a kid again and have his tail back and he didnt choose to go SSJ4 it just happened. But Vegeta he wanted Babadi to gain control of him and he wanted Bulma to shot him with the Brute ray.

[Justin]

Why don't you settle down and leave the debate alone, if you don't want it to continue, Veggetto? There's no need to call anyone any names.

Anyway, I'll give you this, Kneeko, you have thought about this and I respect your opinions. However, I stand beside mine as well.

Then again, most of the facts that are being argued here are speculative, anyway. AT didn't define(or stand beside what he did define)a lot of things in the show.

-Justin

[Kneeko Artilles]

Yes, I am not niaeve (Sp?), and I can see ALL of the points of your side (I'm on my own here!). I respect every all of you have said, and to put this to rest, I'm going to use a quote from one of my all time faveourite films - "The Negotiator"

"Well I didn't say I read just one book, I try to read all the books in a particular subject, and then decide for myself what really happened." - Chris Sabien.

What I'm trying to point out, is that anyone reading this post, please look at all the facts, and don't believe that just because more people believe one side, that this side is the right one, make your own mind up.
I think the reason (and there's not meant to be any offence in this) that most of you believe this, is because you have been "Brought up" to believe it, okay, maybe some of you haven't, but I think you believe it because no-one (Cept me!) has introduced you to a different side of the argument. I have done just this, and even though I am declaring that you officially won (Even though I'll still believe what I believe, and not what you believe), I have proved to myself that in my own way, that I am right. You're probably thinking I'm wierd, but this is just the way I am. I know that there are no hard facts to what I have said, but there are still too few facts to back up completely everything you guys (And gals maybe) have said, true I have less, but the fact (Haha) still remains, and Justin also said it, AT didn't state anything was true, but then, he didn't say any of it was not true, did he....

[DAMiEN]

Some people read to much into this. I mean, if it's not in the show or comics, etc. then you need to get out of the house once in awhile.

[Kent]

I dont get it...

whats the problem here. We all know vegeta had babi dee unlock evil and if you watch closely he says he knew baba dee could give him the power that he gave those fighters in the tournament.

we all know he used the brute ray, that one is dead.

? is...

is there a such thing as cheating? especially if you take it from the view of vegeta. hes not one to think anything is cheating, just a well thought out advantage.

[Kneeko Artilles]

It is a well thought out advantage from one point-of-view, to others it may be cheating, the people who say that without any thought will be those who jump to comclusions and follow others blindly. The people who think about it for a while, will be those who may see the truth, and make their own decisions in life.

To prove this theory, answer me this -

If a glass of water is sitting on the table, and exactly half the glass has water in, is it either half full, or half empty?

[Guest Altron Gundam]

Ok...

This post is just old news. Here's the bottom line.

Vejita coming from Cell Saga into the Tenkaichi Bukodai, is NOTHING but a Super Saiya-jin 1. He trained for 7 years, BUT, he trained MAXING OUT Super Saiya-jin 1.

When it is said you need a PURE heart to go SSJ, that works both ways. Pure good or pure evil. When Babi-Dee possessed Super Saiya-jin 1 Vejita, he unleashed Vejita's remaining evil making him pure evil at the time of possession, as well as giving him a psycho power boost, thus allowing him to go Super Saiya-jin 2, and having the power in that form like he had trained in it.

He DID NOT surpass Gokou in SSJ2. Gokou had MUCH more training in SSJ2-3, but the power boost allowed Vejita to equal SSJ2. This is why the match was virtually even, with Vejita knocking out Gokou via trickery to grab glory for himself in killing Buu.

Gokou could have turned SSJ3, but that would've cost him more time and not be able to teach Chibi Trunks and Goten Fusion.

In the SSJ4 case, Gokou didn't cheat, he had ALL the natural requirements. He STILL had to take his Oorazu powers under control and go from that to SSJ4. All he did was get an acceleration on the growth of his tail with Rou Dai Kaioshin's help. This did not in any way alter his form or boost his power, meaning he did not cheat.

Vejita ON THE OTHER HAND, did cheat, because the brute ray altered his form significantly and turned him Super Saiyajin 4. No such controlling of power was involved or what not. For those IDIOTS that say he didn't cheat because he went Golden Oorazu in Bebi Saga, you are MORONS. To naturally turn Super Saiyajin 4, you must control that Oorazu power WITHIN that form and harness it. Bebi just made Vejita Golden Oorazu, but when Bebi was defeated, oh look we still have Super 17 saga where Vejita only goes SSJ1-2, not 4.

As for that other moron in that AIM convo posted, who said Gokou turned SSJ2 vs. Pikeon you are an IDIOT. He turned SSJ1, but he was on the breaking point to SSJ2. He had maxed out SSJ1, and showed small signs of breaking the barrier as did Gohan in the Room of Spirit and Time. All he needed was training and an anger boost. The way you can tell is that although the blue electricity showed, his hair is still covering most of his forehead and the one strand usually left in the center of the forehead for an SSJ2 is not there.

However he does break the barrier during the 7-year period.

[Foredaddy]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kneeko Artilles [/i]
[B]Yes, I am not niaeve (Sp?), [/B][/QUOTE]

I just have to say one word. Ironic.