Can men really have friends?

[Ninjaman]

I believe that a man can have friends. I have a good friend who even goes here on the Oboards, but I'm not sure if I have told him everything that I feel, though. And I also believe that a guy can be friends with a girl without sexual tension, because I have some friends who are girls that I'm sexually attracted to. And no offense to my friend, but sometimes they're a little bit helpful when I have problems.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]If I hadn't read the posts by other male members, I would have agreed with the qoute that CWB posted...men don't have friends, they have chums, buddies, mates, ect. I guess I sound like the stereotypical male when I say that, but I think that the few people that I talk to regularly online would have a hard time believing that I am like that. I guess I find it a lot easier to bear my soul to people that I will, more than likely, never see.

Now, on to Mnemolth's "When Harry Met Sally" ramble. I think that heterosexual men past the age of fifteen only have female friends that A) they are or were attracted too, B) had or have a friend that they are attracted too, C)have had that friend throughout childhood
[/color]

[Anna]

This has really been interesting to read..... Guys AND girls are confusing to me. I've told my emotions to people of both genders, with the same amount of ease and trust to each. And then there are some that I get along with, but wouldn't trust them any farther than I could throw them. Gah, I've been in an emotional upheavel myself over friends of mine, both genders. ::groans and lets head fall on table:: It must be a symptom of senioritis: that disease that all seniors in high school aquire at some point in their last year. I don't even know if I'm going to HAVE any real friends after I graduate. Everything's shaky, unstable. Like, all the people I thought I knew and trusted, and people I thought would be there with me in the long-run are just pretend. They're not going to exist when I leave, and won't exist when I come back. It's quite disheartening. MOVING ON, I really can't speak for men on the specified subject, for obvious reasons :cross:. But I've been in small groups of just say, three people, me and two other guy friends of mine, and we'd all share our emotions genuinely, and all participating. I think it's possible; if I hadn't been a part of that little group, they still would've talked about what was going on in their lives. And about it being possible to have co-ed friendships w/out sexual tension: I think you have to have a certain level of maturity and longevity in the relationship. More than likely if you've known the person for a long time and all the getting-to-know jitters are out of the way, things settle down. And also, generally if you're not *looking* for a girlfriend/boyfriend, you won't be subconciously distracted when you're talking to a friend of the opposite sex. I'm tired now.

[Turkey]

I only have one friend that's more than a chum. I don't confide much in the others.

[Tsung Li]

I don't confide emotionally with my male "Buddies", but I find that I'm open emotionally with my female friends, I'm closer with them in a sense, where as I'm out with male friends more, but if I was upset about something or someone I would talk to my female friends about it.

[NorykoAngelcry]

[COLOR=darkred][SIZE=1]I really don't confide in anyone. . maybe once a year will I open up to someone, and that is really if the specific conversation comes up or if something is really bothering me and I they have to pry for any information.

Other then that, I really don't normally talk to my friends about 'my life' though I will gladly listen to what they have to say and do my best to help out.

I am a 'listener', not a 'talker' :D[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Char!]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by NorykoAngelcry [/i]
[B][COLOR=darkred][SIZE=1]Other then that, I really don't normally talk to my friends about 'my life' though I will gladly listen to what they have to say and do my best to help out.

I am a 'listener', not a 'talker' :D[/SIZE][/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE]
[b][color=teal][size=1]I know what you mean; I listen more than talk mainly because I have nothing to contribute to a conversation. I have my parents to thatnk for that...
*grumbles*


--Mike[/b][/color][/size]

[vegeta rocker]

well if you think about it women are much closer than most guys, for example whens the last time you saw two guys going underwear shopping? I don't know about gay guys though......

actually get a guy drunk and him and his pals are soul mates for life.

[Armadillomon]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]I basically think its impossible for a guy to be 'just friends' with a girl.[/B][/QUOTE]

I completely disagree. I have some really good friends that are girls. But there is no sexual tension between us. I don't like them [I]that way.[/I]

The main reason that most men think that they can't have friends is because most Americans are so homophobic they can't be anywere near a member of the same sex. I think that some people need to realize that it takes more than just being friends with someone to be truly homosexual.

Also, some people think that they can't be friends with a gay person without being gay themself. This is definitely not true. One of my best friends is gay. (OK, he's bi, but close enough)

[Carren Heart]

if its one thing i've learned in life its that you only ever have two or three REALLY good friends.

[Guest Voodookanaka]

yes they can have friends, only they refer to these kind of 'friends' as women, at least in my case.

Of course its possible to be 'just friends' with girls around 80% of my good friends are girls, and theres no sexual tension as it was put (lol)
-this doesnt mean i dont fancy them, or they dont fancy me, it just means u dont have to do anything about it or want to do anything. I dont know where i was going with this so ill shut up.

[Solo Tremaine]

I personally have three really really good friends who I talk to and listen to all the time. One girl, two boys. The girl is going out with one of the boys, who I've known for about 12 years. We're great friends, and I don't think we ever won't be. At least, I hope that's the case.

My other friend has lots of friends who are girls. He doesn't have a girlfriend, but he's looking for one. As such, things are a bit... weird. He talks to lots of girls, but sometimes it seems a bit false, like he's just wanting to go out with them. It's not a conscious thing, but it's a really strong drive that can really muck friendships up.

Whenever I've fancied someone, I've done my best not to make it show. Otherwise they get to know someone who may be a bit of a show-off, or trying to be funny, or just loud. When this front comes down, it can be a shock. Thus, I've done my best to try and keep them as friends rather than people I'm trying to get into bed with. But some men don't see it like that. It all depends who they are. I bet some, when it really comes down to it, don't even have any male friends who'll be there when they need them...

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Armadillomon [/i]
[B]The main reason that most men think that they can't have friends is because most Americans are so homophobic they can't be anywere near a member of the same sex.[/B][/QUOTE]

What a STUPID comment.

There are many countries who frown upon homosexuality far more than America. We are by no means a homophobic country, it is a very small percentage of people who are completely against gays.

And I have never seen ANYBODY who is embarrassed to be around people of the same sex.

[Solo Tremaine]

You'd be surprised how much homophobia there is. It's not necessarily obvious on the surface, but even major religions such as Christianity are really against homosexuality, so it's probably more of an internal thing that could affect relationships.

And besides, I think Armadillomon was exaggerating a little. Don't get too worked up. It'd be more likely that men are afraid of getting close because of homosexuality. It's generally a natural reaction- biologically, we weren't made to reproduce with other men. Just like we weren't made to reproduce with, say, a microwave. But you can't be friends with a microwave.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solo Tremaine [/i]
[B]even major religions such as Christianity are really against homosexuality, so it's probably more of an internal thing that could affect relationships.[/B][/QUOTE]

Explain what you mean by 'against'. If you mean that Christianity teaches to hate or dislike gays then that is simply untrue. Yes, it does say it is not 'correct' but it says to love them anyway...

I think some of you overestimate homophobia as well.. I'm not saying it's a non-existant problem, that's certainly not true, but America is one of the better places to be gay...

[Solo Tremaine]

I don't mean they teach people to hate it, I mean it goes against their beliefs. Some of the more fundamental Christians can be pretty nasty about it, though. It really depends on how strong your beliefs are. Even though Christianity may tell people to love thy neighbour and accept those who are different to you, some people still don't like it. I'm not talking about everyone, don't get me wrong, it's just some people. I think if there weren't laws against assault and such then it'd be a much bigger problem. But society's learned to adapt to it. It's not a particularly big problem in the sense that it's everwhere, but typical men, deep down, still don't like it. And they can be discriminated against by people. They can be. I'm not saying they are. In some countries I think you can still be executed or imprisoned or something for being homosexual. Maybe I'm making an unfair generalisation here, but that's what I see.

[Biida]

Can men truly have friends they can open up to? Sure they can, why couldn't they? I'm not a guy so I personally wouldn't know this, but from what I've seen in most of my (guy) friends, its usually with only their close friends they're so open with. O.o And maybe it's just me, but they seem to open up to girls alot more than the other guys... Eh. Who knows. I'll never truly understand men all that much anyway. ^_^;;;

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solo Tremaine [/i]
[B] Maybe I'm making an unfair generalisation here, but that's what I see. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]No, you're absolutely correct with your observations. Denial that a significant problem exists only further contributes to that problem.[/color]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solo Tremaine [/i]
[B]In some countries I think you can still be executed or imprisoned or something for being homosexual.[/B][/QUOTE]

Precisely my point.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solo Tremaine [/i]
[B]You'd be surprised how much homophobia there is. It's not necessarily obvious on the surface, but even major religions such as Christianity are really against homosexuality, so it's probably more of an internal thing that could affect relationships.[/B][/QUOTE]

At our church, we also have a saying 'Hate the Sin, love the Sinner'. You can't go far wrong if you stick to that. Basically what it means is that if someone's done anything which is biblically wrong, then fine.. it was wrong, but we all do things which are wrong and we're all forgiven if we accept the forgiveness, so we shouldn't get caught up arguing about who is holier than who and start condemning people. Even if you think Christianity is a load of crap, forgiving people isn't a particularly bad habit to get into..

But.. most Christians don't stick to that, as you've already said a few posts later.

Ultimately, as my beliefs dictate, I believe that homosexuality is wrong, in the same way that I believe stealing is wrong, and so many other things. I don't know [i]why[/i] it's wrong, I'm just told that it is.. HOWEVER I am also told to love my neighbour as I would myself, so no matter how much someone else's actions may be wrong in accordance to my beliefs, I won't dub that [i]person[/i] wrong, because that would be saying 'I'm better than you' when in actual fact I'm not.

A lot of the more "fundamental" Christians take literally the verse in Exodus which goes along the lines of "any man who has sexual relations with another man will be put to death". However, if they paid as much attention to parts of the New Testament, they'd know that that rule pretty much ended 2000 years ago when we were told that we should forgive instead.. In fact, one of the whole points of the Old Testament was that we should forgive. Many times in the Old Testament, God was going to pass judgement on people, but chose to forgive them instead, and even with all of the rules given in Exodus, we could have chosen to forgive people instead, but we didn't.

So my point is this, I think.. If a Christian decides he hates homosexuals because the bible says you should, it's [i]not[/i] because [i]the bible says you should[/i], but rather because he (wrongly) [i]thinks[/i] the Bible says you should.


I'll just point one thing out: I am not in disagreement with either of your posts at all... there [b]is[/b] far too much discrimination around, but the discrimination from religious people comes less from the religion itself and more from the people ;) , which you've pretty much said already, but I thought I'd go into more detail..

[James]

[color=royalblue]In my opinion, this is another case of people taking the Bible literally. You can't pick and choose. If you want to take references to homosexuality literally, then you must also take references to the Earth's creation literally (many of which have been disproven over time).

So I think that when people say that homosexuality (or any non-heterosexual practice) is "wrong", and they point to the Bible, it's really quite a weak excuse.

In any case, regardless of people's personal prejudices, I'm sure we all agree that discrimination on any grounds is simply not right. And as long as we further that concept, we'll be able to relieve a lot of tension in society.

Anyway, I think we're really getting away from the main point of the discussion here. This isn't a discussion about homosexuality and religion, it's a discussion about whether men can have female friends.

So, I recommend that from here on, everyone please stick to the topic. If you have nothing to add to the topic at hand, please don't continue posting here.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]
Anyway, I think we're really getting away from the main point of the discussion here. This isn't a discussion about homosexuality and religion, it's a discussion about whether men can have female friends.

So, I recommend that from here on, everyone please stick to the topic. If you have nothing to add to the topic at hand, please don't continue posting here.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep. Maybe not all men can have female friends (it's debatable..) but some can. I say that because [i]I[/i] can... there's not a lot more to my reasoning than that, I'm afraid.. :rolleyes:

I think it's all a matter of needing self control. If you need self control then it's difficult. However, If you don't even think about the fact that there may be some sexual tension then there just.. isn't any.. If you see what I mean.

[Mnemolth]

This is for those of you sufficiently experienced to appreciate the humour...or not. :D

A few pearls of wisdom from an old romantic comedy, When Harry Met Sally.

[b]First off, to the point directly at hand, on men and women friends:[/b]

[i](Harry and Sally are sharing a ride to New York city after graduating from Chicago University. Harry's gf Amanda, is a friend of Sally and she is there to see them off)

Harry: You realise of course that we can never be friends.

Sally: Why not?

Harry: What I'm saying is... and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or
form, is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets
in the way.

Sally: That's not true, I have a number of men friends and there's is no sex
involved.

Harry: No you don't.

Sally: Yes I do.

Harry: No you don't.

Sally: Yes I do.

Harry: You only think you do.

Sally: You're saying I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?

Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you.

Sally: They do not.

Harry: Do too.

Sally: They do not.

Harry: Do too.

Sally: How do you know?

Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman he finds attractive, he
always wants to have sex with her.

Sally: So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds
unattractive.

Harry: Nuh, you pretty much wanna nail'em too.

Sally: What if they don't want to have sex with you?

Harry: Doesn't matter, because the sex thing is already out there so the
friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.

-----------------

(a few years later, when they bump into each other again)

Harry: Would you like to have dinner?

(Sally looks over)

Harry: Just friends.

Sally: I thought you didn't believe men and women could be friends.

Harry: When did I say that?

Sally: On the ride to New York.

Harry: No no no no, I never said that. (Harry pauses, thinks.) Yes, that's
right, they can't be friends. Unless both of them are involved with other
people then they can. This is an amendment to the earlier rule, if the two
people are in relationships, the pressure of possibilty of involvement is
lifted. (Pauses) That doesn't work either because what happens then is the
person you're involved with can't understand why you need to be friends with
the person you're just friends with. Like it means something is missing from
their relationship and "why do you have to go outside to get it?". Then
when you say, "no no no no, it's not true nothing's missing from the
relationship", the person you're involved with then accuses you of being
secretly attracted to the person you're just friends with, which we probably
are, I mean, come on, who the hell are we kidding, let's face it,
which brings us back to the earlier rule before the amendment which is men and
women can't be friends, so where does that leave us?

Sally: Harry.

Harry: What?

Sally: Goodbye.

Harry: Oh, OK.
[/i]

[b]On love and sex:[/b]

[i](during the road trip to New York, still in the car)

Sally: You're wrong.

Harry: I'm not wrong, he wants...

Sally: You're wrong.

Harry: ...he wants her to leave that's why he puts her on the plane.

Sally: I don't think she wants to stay.

Harry: Of course she wants to stay. Wouldn't you rather be with Humphrey
Bogart than the other guy?

Sally: I don't want to spend the rest of my life in Casablanca married to a
man who runs a bar. I probably sound very snobbish to you but I don't.

Harry: You'd rather be in a passionless marriage.

Sally: And be the first lady of Czechoslovakia.

Harry: Than live with the man you've had the greatest sex of you life with,
and just because he owns a bar and that is all he does.

Sally: Yes. And so had any woman in her right mind, woman are very
practical, even Ingrid Bergman which is why she gets on the plane at the end
of the movie.

(They pull up to a road side cafe.)

Harry: I understand.

Sally: What? What?

Harry: Nothing.

Sally: What?

Harry: Forget about it.

Sally: For.. What? Forget about what?

Harry: It's not important.

Sally: No just tell me.

Harry: Obviously you haven't had great sex yet. (Turns to waitress) Two
please.

Waitress:: Right over there.

Sally: Yes I have.

Harry: No you haven't.

Sally: It just so happens that I have had plenty of good sex.

(Silence, the whole restaurant looks at Sally. Sally realises what she had
done, walks carefully with a tilted head towards the table.)

Harry: With whom?

Sally: What?

Harry: With whom did you have this great sex?

Sally: I'm not going to tell you that!

Harry: Fine, don't tell me.

Sally: Shel Gordon.

Harry: Shel? Sheldon? No, no, you didn't have great sex with ... Sheldon.

Sally: I did too.

Harry: No you didn't. A Sheldon can do your income taxes. If you need a root
canal Sheldon's your man, but humping and pumping is not Sheldon's strong
suit. It's the name. Do it to me 'Sheldon', you're an animal 'Sheldon',
ride me big 'Sheldon'. Doesn't work.
[/i]

[b]On letting the cat out of the bag:[/b]
[i](remember that Harry's gf is a close friend of Sally)

Sally: So you're coming on to me!

Harry: No I wasn't. What?

(Sally is not impressed, jaw drops, wide eyes)

Harry: Can't a man say a woman is attractive without it being a come-on?
Alright, alright, let's just say just for the sake of argument that it was a
come-on. What do you want me to do about it? I take it back, ok? I take it
back.

Sally: You can't take it back.

Harry: Why not?

Sally: Because it's already out there.

Harry: Oh gees, what are we suppose to do, call the cops? It's already out
there.

Sally: Just let it lie, ok?
[/i]
[b]On puppy love:[/b]

[i](Harry bumps into Sally a few years after their first meeting on the road trip to New York. They are in an airplane after meeting at the airport where Sally was being sent off by her current boyfriend, Joe who Harry happens to know from University)

Harry: Great! And you're with Joe. Well that's great, great. You're
together, what, three weeks?

Sally: A month, how did you know that?

Harry: You take someone to the Airport it's clearly the beginning of a
relationship that's why I have never taken anyone to the Airport at the
beginning of a relationship.

Sally: Why?

Harry: Because eventually if things move on and you don't take someone to the
Airport, and I never wanted anyone to say to me, "How come you never take me
to the Airport anymore?"

Sally: It's amazing, you look like a normal person but actually you're the
Angel of Death.[/i]

[b]On affection:[/b]

[i]
(later on Harry tells Sally he is going to get married)

Harry: Yeah plus you know you just get to a certain point where you get tired
of the whole thing.

Sally: What "whole thing"?

Harry: The whole life-of-a-single-guy thing. You meet someone, you have the
safe lunch, you decide you like each other enough to move on to dinner. You
go dancing, you do the white-man's over-bite, go back to her place, you have
sex and the minute you're finished you know what goes through your mind? How
long do I have to lie here and hold her before I can get up and go home. Is
thirty seconds enough?

Sally: (In disgust) That's what you're thinking? Is that true?

Harry: Sure! All men think that. How long do you want to be held
afterwards? All night, right? See there's your problem, somewhere between
thirty seconds and all night is your problem.

Sally: I don't have a problem!

Harry: Yeah you do.
[/i]

SPOILER!! (kinda, but not really, thoug you have been warned :p)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


[b]One male ego and female deceit:[/b]

[i](one of those classic scenes that defines a generation; long, long before Seinfield ever showed up on the scene)

(Harry and Sally at a diner)

Sally: So what do you do with these women, you just get up out of bed and
leave?

Harry: Sure.

Sally: Well explain to me how you do it. What do you say?

Harry: You'd say you have an early meeting, early haircut or a squash game.

Sally: You don't play squash.

Harry: They don't know that they just met me.

Sally: That's disgusting.

Harry: I know, I feel terrible.

Sally: You know I'm so glad I never got involved with you. I just would've
ended up being some woman you had to get up out of bed and leave at three
o'clock in the morning and clean your andirons, and you don't even have a
fireplace. Not that I would noticed.

Harry: Why are you getting so upset? This is not about you.

Sally: Yes it is. You are a human affront to all women and I am a woman.

Harry: Hey I don't feel great about this but I don't hear anyone complaining.

Sally: Of course not you're out of the door too fast.

Harry: I think they have an OK time.

Sally: How do you know?

Harry: What do you mean how do I know? I know.

Sally: Because they...

Harry: Yes, because they...

Sally: And how do you know that they really...

Harry: What are you saying, that they fake orgasm?

Sally: It's possible.

Harry: Get outta here!

Sally: Why? Most women at one time or another have faked it.

Harry: Well they haven't faked it with me.

Sally: How do you know?

Harry: Because I know.

Sally: Oh, right, that's right, I forgot, you're a man.

Harry: What is that supposed to mean?

Sally: Nothing. It's just that all men are sure it never happened to them and
that most women at one time or another have done it so you do the math.

Harry: You don't think that I could tell the difference?

Sally: No.

Harry: Get outta here.

Sally: Ooo...Oh...Ooo...

Harry: Are you OK?

Sally: Oh...Oh god...Ooo Oh God...Oh...Oh...Oh...Oh God...Oh yeah right there
Oh! Oh...Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes...Oh...Oh...Yes Yes Yes....Oh...Yes Yes Yes
Yes Yes Yes...Oh...Oh... Oh... Oh God Oh... Oh... Huh...

(Sally finishes, looks at Harry and smiles. Harry looks back, looking a
little uneasy)

Lady from another table: I'll have what she's having.
[/i]