Can We Prove We Exist?

[Angelus_Necare]

I think we're really here...

*continues to poke herself in the face*

[Mitch]

[color=red] We exist. We are merely trillions of cells all working together to form one being that is able of comprehsion. [/color]

[zidane11]

Sorry, I dont exist. Wait, now I do. [I]*Gets shot[/I]
Now I don't.

I don't really get this thread. If I see someone then I pretty much day that he exists. That's what I think.

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnimeLover [/i]
[B][color=red] We exist. We are merely trillions of cells all working together to form one being that is able of comprehsion. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE] Well, ain't you the philosopher.

Do you really think that's all there is to life? [i]Oh yeah. We're lots of little cells.[/i]

I'd like to think it's a bit bigger than that.

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cera [/i]
[B]Well, ain't you the philosopher.

Do you really think that's all there is to life? [i]Oh yeah. We're lots of little cells.[/i]

I'd like to think it's a bit bigger than that. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=red] Cera, I was just stating the [i]facts[/i]. Our comprehesion is what ables us to have emotions, and our emotions are what seem to weave us into something more than just 'trillions of cells'. So I realize there's [i]much[/i] more to life than that. Very much more.[/color]

[Sara]

Since when do facts have anything to do with life? :p

[Juu]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]Well...... let's see...
This sorta came to me in a dream... @_@

mind my insanity... :p

How do we know if we exist?
Our lives can be a dream. When we wake up, we might find ourselves where we were in the first place, heaven...hell... whatever you choose to say..
We could be like.... dolls in a playhouse... controlled by some other thing, which seems like... life for us...
We could be like cells on a cell of something else, orbiting forever around a particular part of another creature's body, until they eventually die.

I dunno... it's just a few thoughts that came to me....
I have the weirdest dreams and thoughts in the car... @_@[/color] [/size]

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cera [/i]
[B]Since when do facts have anything to do with life? :p [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=red] Well, if you don't have the facts, or most of them, straight on life, then you're not going to make it. To survive you've got to know the truths hidden behind all of those lies. You're the one that brought life into the whole thing Cera, not me :p[/color]

[zidane11]

What if are galaxy was a part of some other beings microscopic cells. Like are universe was to small to see even with a microscope for that creature. Or maybe this world is somebodys dream. This thread is really thought provoking.

[Mnemolth]

The question of our existence or otherwise is a metaphysical concept, not a physical argument. Saying that you affect the world, or the world impacts on you, and therefore you exist is to miss the point. If you dig a hole, you dig a hole, but how do you know the hole is real, and as a consequence how do you know you are real? If you step in the hole you will no doubt fall inside it, but that doesn't make it any more real.

Imagine if we were all random constructs of a complex algorithm to inhabit a world 'created' by a computer program. 'We' would have no bodies. The 'hole' would not be 'real' either. Just a metaphysical construct.

At the end of the day, this is really more a question of consciouness. Hence, 'I think there I am'. Consciousness is all that matters. It is the only thing that can anchor our existence. For, no matter if we are 'real' or otherwise, we think, and because we think we become 'real'. If we are random constructs of a computer program, we are constructs with a consciousness, regardless of how that is arrived. THAT is what makes us real. Not the fact that we bleed or that we pollute. If we are actual 'real' people, then again, it is our consciouness that makes us 'real', not our physical make up.

Well then what about trees, rocks, many (if not all) animals, etc? What of them? The point is to prove our existence. Their existence is still up for debate.

And as for the clever turn of phrase, 'I doubt, there I am'. Well, one doubts because one is critical. And to be critical is to think. So it ends up being the same thing really. :)

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]The question of our existence or otherwise is a metaphysical concept, not a physical argument. Saying that you affect the world, or the world impacts on you, and therefore you exist is to miss the point. If you dig a hole, you dig a hole, but how do you know the hole is real, and as a consequence how do you know you are real? If you step in the hole you will no doubt fall inside it, but that doesn't make it any more real.

At the end of the day, this is really more a question of consciouness. Hence, 'I think there I am'. Consciousness is all that matters. It is the only thing that can anchor our existence. For, no matter if we are 'real' or otherwise, we think, and because we think we become 'real'. If we are random constructs of a computer program, we are constructs with a consciousness, regardless of how that is arrived. THAT is what makes us real. Not the fact that we bleed or that we pollute. If we are actual 'real' people, then again, it is our consciouness that makes us 'real', not our physical make up.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=red] Exactly what I was saying, only expanded and explained better ;)[/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]If you dig a hole, you dig a hole, but how do you know the hole is real, and as a consequence how do you know you are real? If you step in the hole you will no doubt fall inside it, but that doesn't make it any more real.[/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]Dig a hole, dig a hole, dig a whole... lol. A little [i]Ed, Edd, & Eddy[/i] for you all.

Anyway, from what I understand of that, your are saying that if you were to dig a hole, you can say that you affected something, but you can't prove that it was something you affected? I can understand that, but more so that if one was to dig a hole, they can they they affected something, but they [i]have to prove[/i] they affected something. One could do this by filling the hole back up, and stepping in the area where the hole was. If they don't fall, then then hole would have been real, because they were able to change the way something exists. Things that are not real, don't change. So if they filled the hole, and still fell into that area, then it wouldn't be real. That event defies all sense of reality.

I would go on, but I'm being rushed off the computer.[/color]

[MathGuy2]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]Go outside and dig a hole in the ground.

That proves you exist. Why? Because your actions have impacted another object.

Just look at pollution and things like that; if mandkind didn't "exist", then our waste wouldn't be affecting the Earth in the way that it is.

So...of course we can prove that we exist. Just as we can prove that dinosaurs existed; we leave behind evidence of our existence. Whether it's a fossil in a rock, or a Coke can on the beach. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

The hole in the ground, the pollution in the air, the fossils and Cokes: they all exist only to the extent we notice them.

Do I exist? I have a center, somewhere, that can output signals and input signals. If this center outputs the signal known as "move my arm", then somehow signals are send back saying "see arm moving" and "feel arm touching body". What is this center? From the signals I have input, I have a stored signal stating that this signal is in an area known as "brain", a "word" that is made up of signals called "see lines intersecting in this pattern" and "hear sound", and has the meaning of an area that can only be detected indirectly, and happens to be located in the position that is "behind" my "eyes".

I have often thought about our free will. Most scientific theories cannot work without an absence of free will. I was destined to type this reply. Dell was destined to make this computer that I am using. Time travel certainly sounds plausible, but what if one goes back in time and kills his/her unmarried mother or father? The answer: you can't. There is no chance of that happenning.

What is our existence, then? A command center able to process messages. Among these are messages that represent everyone else, and these we know are. ("be" hereafter often used in the sense of intransitive "exist") The Otakuboards may well not exist, and just be a figment of my imagination. You might be but elements of my creativity. What is, then? Nothing is, at least that can be proven. I believe in everyone else, therefore they are for me, but may not be for everyone. I believe in God, therefore he is for me. He may well be, and that is where I say I believe he is.

In algebra, geometry, and other mathematics, one starts with a set of "axioms" and "postulates", statements that define what is in this mathematics. Why does 2+2=4? I can say it equals five. That gives me another mathematics, another "world" if you will. Many famous mathematicians, attempting to prove (and demote to a theorem) Euclid's Fifth Postulate (take a line "L", and a point "P" outside it, and you can only draw one line parallel to "L" that goes through "P"), found that it cannot be proved: if you change the
theorem to no parallels or many parallels, you get spherical and hyperbolic geometries (respectively) rather than flat, normal, Euclidean geometry. So what does this say? If the Euclidean point not only is but also thinks, then it notices that in can stick a line through itself only one way to make a parallel. The spherical point cannot do this at all. Does this imply existence of the points? Only within their respective geometries. Do these geometries exist? Only from the view of the observer. (Science note: our universe may actually be slightly skewed and hyperbolic, not pure Euclidean - planets' orbits calculate more precisely using hyperbolic geometries.) Anyway, does the observer exist? Only from...ad infinitum. Existence itself cannot exist anymore than one who exists, exists.

"I think, therefore I am." Does a braindead human therefore not exist? We see him, we notice his physiological functions. He does not think. So is he not? What about this reply? Is it? It thinks not, it exists not physically, but it is to our perceptions.

Gosh, this is confusing. So, am I? I am, because it's easier for me to be than not to be. Maybe I am not. I've never seen [i]The Matrix[/i], but gathering from here, there is a red pill that modifies our thoughts to put us in a virtual other perfect world. That existence would be as valid as this one, if it emulates and encapsulates known life perfectly. ("Encapsulate" is a C++ word, it means a computer program can implement these outside abilities without anyone worrying about how - e.g., a computer encapsulates what is does through keyboard and monitor.) Therefore, one definition of existence is what we notice. But I personally would not take the pill. I am a Christian, I believe in God, and that is for me what defines what isn't and what is. God Himself said, "I am who I am;" that is the simplest definition of being.

(Edit: my, I type a lot.)

[Mnemolth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]Things are are not real, don't change... [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Huh?? Are the SIMs real? I would have thought not. If a computer randomly creates 'us' based on a complex set of algorithms (ie no interaction from a 'user'), and drops 'us' in a 'world' made by it, then of course 'we' can interact with the 'world'. But it doesn't make the world 'real'. It doesn't make us 'real'. There is no dirt, no hole, no blood, no trees, no animals, none of these things exist. They are merely constructs of a computer program. The only thing we can be sure of is our consciousness. Whether that is a result of complex computer algorithms, or an evolution based on 'real' physical structures, we KNOW it is there because we think.

[Juu]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]Or... it could be that one of the peoples you see is the dreamer... and the rest of us are.. part of the dream.. ^^;[/color] [/size]

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]Huh?? Are the SIMs real? I would have thought not. If a computer randomly creates 'us' based on a complex set of algorithms (ie no interaction from a 'user'), and drops 'us' in a 'world' made by it, then of course 'we' can interact with the 'world'. But it doesn't make the world 'real'. It doesn't make us 'real'. There is no dirt, no hole, no blood, no trees, no animals, none of these things exist. They are merely constructs of a computer program. The only thing we can be sure of is our consciousness. Whether that is a result of complex computer algorithms, or an evolution based on 'real' physical structures, we KNOW it is there because we think.[/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]After actually taking the time to make sense of anything you type, I'm beginning to see your point. If I think too deep into your point, I start to think in a theological sense, which I'm trying to avoid in this topic. It is just too easy of a way out to think that things exist because something 'greater' put them there, and we believe they are real because we have been programmed to. I do like your comparison to the SIMs, though. That actually made things start to make sense.

Though, I can see why our ideas clash. I am explaining how I think things are from a person perspective, and you seem to be doing it from a "bird's eye view", I guess would be a way to put it. In historic comparison, I would probably be from the Enlightenment, and you from.. I'd say the Romanticist Age (what came after the Enlightenment). You seem to be a rather intelligent person, so I will assume you know what those ages are about...

I think I just made sense, lol... Not quite too sure, though. I've done too much thinking for one day.[/color]

[Defcon5]

I can touch myself (that sounded wrong) see my self and others so to me that is evidence enough. I don't need to spend my life wondering if I realy exist or not. As someone said before you people think about things like this WAY to much. I'm not saying it's bad to get into a debate and to challenge your mind but somethings just go to far.

[Kent]

my problem with this topic is that people are stepping back and looking at things in a hypothetical sense or with a sense of almost spiritual inqusition.

with this debate being the intellectual one I had mentioned before, we cant look at things from a hypothetical or spiritual perspective.

we've got to stick to the realist point of view that tells us a dream is a dream. spirits are not material and even though I believe I have you, along with all of you, I dont believe I can prove there is a such thing, nor can anyone else.

with this "realist" view, it is impossible to stand back and say we could possibly be in a dream state or something.

I stick to what I said before, and what others said before me...
"I think, therefore I am"

although, I will say that the thinking thing does not apply to my realist side.

[Dan L]

"I think that I think, therefore I might possibly be"- No idea where I read that..

I think it's quite ironic actually that people have gotten to a point where we are debating whether or not we exist. There are lots of things that are entirely possible on this subject. I'll give a few examples of thoughts I've had in the past:

1- "I exist, but do you?"

2- "Did Julius Caesar really exist? I never saw him...."

3- "That thing I did 3 months ago... did that really happen....."

A few minutes later..

"Did I really think that just now????"


So yeah.. I'll explain the kind of thoughts I had at the time in each case

1- "[b]I know I exist.. I think, I feel, I see, I hear, but what about all these other guys.. I don't [i]know[/i] that they think, feel, or see, or hear.. They just seem to react to everything in that way.. but I don't know that they actually exist....[/b]" After this point, the point starts going round in circles

2- "[b]All these guys I learn about in history (I was still in school at the time)... did they ever exist?.. or does everyone just tell me that they did, but they never really did? I know I never met them, so how do I know if any of this really happened? Why should I believe something that some guy says happened, just because some other guy told him the exact same thing???[/b]"

3- "[b]I remember doing that... but did it really happen... Can I prove it ever happened?.. um.. no...[/b]"

"[b]Did I really think that just now?.. um.. I think so.. therefore I might possibly have done???[/b]"

Obviously, my attitudes have changed a lot.. just thought I'd share opinions I've had in the past..

[Guest Voodookanaka]

I can't remember where its from but somebody once said, [b]'there is no past (only memories) there is no future (it has yet to happen) there is only now... and i never just said that'[/b]
just thought id add that comment :shifty: :smoke:

[Mitch]

[color=red] Just because we interact with this world does not mean that we exist. The only reason we exist because we think we exist, therefore we are able to comprehend that everything else must exist. But that is not true. Just because we interact by no means we exist. Interaction is only seen by us as existing because we want it to, not because it means we exist. So really, I think there's really no way to catagorize if we exist or not. Some things just are not able to be understood. As I think existence will never be completly understood and placed in as a principle from which we base our very lives on. The only way I think that it is possible for us to really say we exist is to say that if we can comprehend, and say we exist, then we are in a sense. But only in sense are we exising, based upon what we think. If we were to be taken away of our intellect, then we would not even know what existence [i]is[/i], therefore we wouldn't truly exist since we could't say we did. This thread really gets you thinking...[/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnimeLover[/i]
[B][color=red]If we were to be taken away of our intellect, then we would not even know what existence [i]is[/i], therefore we wouldn't truly exist since we could't say we did. This thread really gets you thinking...[/color][/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]People are a curious breed, and when you have no intellect, you have more to be curious about. The more things you are curious about, and that you figure out, the more intellect you regain. So the question of whether or not they exist would come about eventually. Maybe not right away, but it would come around. It's pretty much an inevitable thought, and we'd end up right back where we started... more or less.[/color]

[MathGuy2]

[b]Regarding the exact meaning of the question posed[/b]
"Can we prove we exist?"

Can we prove? What is "prove"? How does one show that something is true? We can say, for example, that grass is green. What is green? What is color? We cannot prove anything; we can only assume things and define things and create derivations from there. Green is this color shade we define. Grass is this plant we define. Grass is therefore green.

We exist? What is exist? Before discussing existence, let us define it. I would say that anything that manifests itself, that causes something to happen in any way, exists in some form. I exist in that I type this message. This message exists because it is on the thread. The thread exists because it is in the forum. The forum, on my screen; the screen, seen by me.

[b]Defining existence, and on the Sims[/b]
The Sims exist, of course! They are seen by you, they cause interactions amongst themselves, they are discussed on this forum. Does this world exist? For all of the members of this world, for all practical purposes yes. People in my dream exist in my dream; they cause others to be affected by them - others withing the dream, and all who notice the dream (normally just me). Does this world exist? We cause things to happen in this world. Therefore, we exist within the realm of this world. It is irrelevant whether or not we exist within another realm - that requires the existence or realms to be demonstrated.

[b]"Cogito ergo sum"[/b]
"I think therefore I am" does not imply "I think not therefore I amn't," no? E.g., Hurricane Lili thought not, but she definitely was! "If I think, I am" is not enough to quantify am-ness. Only "If and only if I think [or something else], I am" can prove existence sufficiently. I say, "If and only if I can affect something else, I am at the same level of existence that the other thing is."

[b]Analogy from Digimon[/b]
This leads me to an interesting parallel with Digimon. Ken, who was originally one of the bad guys, turned good when everyone else convinced him that Digimon were real. How? The Digimon were able to exist in the real world, not only the Digital World. But did this prove their existence? What if the bad guy was "Kenmon" and other Digimon had to prove him humans were real (existed) by stating they were able to be in the Digital World? That would be equally valid, right? What is the true realm that exists? (Why am I talking like that girl from the "Zits" comic who punctuates everythings with question marks?)

[b]Attempting to define existence[/b]
[quote][i]Originally found on Dictionary.com from the American Heritage Dictionary[/i]

ex·is·tence n. 1. The fact or state of existing; being. [other definitions removed]

ex·ist n. 1. To have actual being; be real.

be v. 1. To exist in actuality; have life or reality: I think, therefore I am.
[/quote]

Which brings us to a circular definition. (existence - state of existing, exist - have being, be - exist)

No, existence cannot be proven to any level more than our sufficient existence for our needs. I exist to type this reply. Yes, I exist, yes I can prove it - given that the reply exists. If my "dreamer" wakes up in a few minutes, will that dequalify my existence and put me as a dream? If my "programmer" stops the universe, will that make me only bits and bytes? No, I will have existed - as a part of the dream or program.

[b]Conclusion[/b]
So......we cannot prove existence without assuming existence of other things, or precisely and unambiguously define existence, being, and reality. We can, however, state (and all we can state) that we exist enough to do what we need and want to do, and that I exist as much as everyone and everything else does. QED!

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]People are a curious breed, and when you have no intellect, you have more to be curious about. The more things you are curious about, and that you figure out, the more intellect you regain. So the question of whether or not they exist would come about eventually. Maybe not right away, but it would come around. It's pretty much an inevitable thought, and we'd end up right back where we started... more or less.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=red] I'm talking if we were to be taken away of our intellect completly. Say only to the intellect of a dog (not that I hate dogs). A dog goes about life living it, not caring about such trivial matters, nor knowing what existence is. Thus it would never actually know that it exists. Nor would it care.[/color]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnimeLover [/i]
[B][color=red] I'm talking if we were to be taken away of our intellect completly. Say only to the intellect of a dog (not that I hate dogs). A dog goes about life living it, not caring about such trivial matters, nor knowing what existence is. Thus it would never actually know that it exists. Nor would it care.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I disagree with that. Dogs know of existence because they are a living being and their primary function is survival. So, they have to possess some knowledge that they exist in the first place. Granted, they are instinctual rather than intellectual, but I can't help but to believe that they have some grasp on existence.

[Quote][b]The Sims exist, of course! They are seen by you, they cause interactions amongst themselves, they are discussed on this forum. Does this world exist? For all of the members of this world, for all practical purposes yes. People in my dream exist in my dream; they cause others to be affected by them - others withing the dream, and all who notice the dream (normally just me). Does this world exist? We cause things to happen in this world. Therefore, we exist within the realm of this world. It is irrelevant whether or not we exist within another realm - that requires the existence or realms to be demonstrated.[/Quote][/B]

The Sims do exist--as an object. There is no they.

The characters on screen aren't molecules, but pixels existing on a program in which they carry out artificially implemented actions and patterns. Because they do not breathe, possess vision, hear, or have the abilities to feel or think for themselves, "they" can't be defined as living. So, it's impossible for you to seriously distinguish them as separate existing organisms.

But, like I said, as an object, a video game in this case, they surely do exist to us.

The fictional characters in The Sims do not exist in another dimension or world. Nor do your dreams. Dreams are merely a result of your mind remaining active when your body is not. There are no people in your dreams--only visions. These visions can't affect one another because they're shadows of your psyche. By classifying dreams as existing, you're saying that a mirage exists when in actually, it does not.