Can We Prove We Exist?

[MathGuy2]

[quote]
[i]All of these from above post by Crazy White Boy[/i]
The characters on screen aren't molecules, but pixels existing on a program in which they carry out artificially implemented actions and patterns.
[/quote]
What is the fundamental difference between molecules in space and pixels on screen (or more accurately, bits on a RAM chip)? These "artificially implemented actions" just take on a MUCH more complicated structure in the human body. Science, if given enough dedication, could easily create a perfect human (not physically/morally perfect, but carbon-copy perfect) on a computer. What is our brain? A path of interconnected neurons. Each receives input from somewhere (say our eyes), performs simple scaled summation with the bias (scl(1)*inp(1)+scl(2)*inp(2)+bScl*bias), and outputs a pulse (or not) and modifies the bias. Stick trillions of these, tuned perfectly, and voila! a human brain. We've also recently decoded the length of the human genome, and have long known how to make proteins/polypeptides from DNA codons.

[quote]
Because they do not breathe, possess vision, hear, or have the abilities to feel or think for themselves, "they" can't be defined as living.
[/quote]

A blade of grass has none of these. Yet it is still living. The definition I learned in prebiology last year for "living" was: ability to grow, reproduce, consume nourishment, and respond to change. Sims can perform all of these, right? I think it was Sims' package that says, "If it were any more realistic, it'd be illegal to turn it off."

I am not, nor have I ever, claimed that the dreams exist as anything more than "shadows of [my] psyche". But yes, they exist as those shadows (ahh, I can't type easily now), in that "dreamland". All I am stating is that unless we agree on "prove" and "exist", we cannot "prove we exist", disprove we exist, or prove the inability to (dis)prove we exist.

My definition of existence is this: if an object causes effects on another object, then the former exists as much as the latter.

Apparently, your definition of existence is being a human in this world. No offense intended, but this discussion aims to identify whether we exist any more than being in this world. (A shadow of my psyche exists in my psyche, but according to you it doesn't exist.)

My proof: we cannot prove anything without basic unprovable but true statements. Existence is one topic that calls into question these axioms - most involve existence itself. Therefore, true, pure, absolute existence is an axiom itself; it is un(dis)provable.

[b]Proof that a dream exists[/b]
This keyboard exists in this world - a human in this world can feel it, see it, and hear it. A dream keyboard exists in a dream world - a dream human can feel it (in the way dream humans do anything). In addition, I can see that keyboard in my dream, and it affects me when I wake if I remember the dream. If I dream up (literally) a new, efficient layout for the keyboard, I might become world-famous. Therefore, the dream affected me - and existed.

[b]Proof that we can't prove existence[/b]
Proof by contradiction: Assume that we were able to prove our existence. Therefore, there must be a proof that proves our existence. (of course)
#1: This proof defines existence in the process of proving our existence. Therefore, does the proof exist? Say the proof said "If an item exists, it can be described in three sentences. Humans can be described by their name, age, and location. Therefore, humans exist." That proof is not rigorous enough to prove existence properly. A proof that describes existence cannot be used to define its own existence, and using another definition of existence naturally invalidates the proof. Therefore, a proof of existence cannot exist, and we cannot prove our existence.
#2: This proof must start with some basic statements. (E.g., "God never lies. The Bible is God's word.") Eventually, these statements will lead to existence. ("The Bible says that God created us, and we exist.") This leads to a circular path - because we exist, we exist. Also, the original statements themselves imply existence. Therefore, existence must be a base of all basic statements, and sort of a "super-axiom". Therefore we cannot prove existence.
QED is demonstrated twice.

[Charles]

Hmm, this is tough, lol.

The difference between molecules and pixels is that pixels are the basic unit of composition for [I]images[/I]. Be it on a computer screen or a television screen or what have you.

I have never been big on science, but from what I remember, beings or objects composed of molecules take up space--or have matter.

The "people" in the Sims are not composed of matter, but pixels rather. So, as [I]I[/I]would understand it, each individual player model does not have matter and consequently does not take up space.

For something to truly exist, I always figured that it should, by all means, take up space. A rock, air, blade of grass, or a bird's nest all, though lacking the ability to think, do take up space. Thus, they exist.

[B][Quote]A blade of grass has none of these. Yet it is still living. The definition I learned in prebiology last year for "living" was: ability to grow, reproduce, consume nourishment, and respond to change. Sims can perform all of these, right? I think it was Sims' package that says, "If it were any more realistic, it'd be illegal to turn it off."[/b][/Quote]

Heh, you have me there. Very nice.

But, I was only comparing the Sims "people" to real people.

Once again, grass on Earth has matter. Grass in The Sims, which would most likely be a texture or rendered image (I'm not [I]too[/I] familiar with the game) would be composed of pixels.

Again, I'm not a science buff, but from what I understand, grass is around 70% water give or take. Furthermore, like trees, it gives off oxygen.

The Sims grass requires nothing to live and doesn't operate by the laws of nature. Referring to my other points, it's not composed of actual matter.

[b][quote]Apparently, your definition of existence is being a human in this world[/b][/quote]

Nope. I know that it came off like that though. A lot of that post was basically comparing the humans in The Sims to real human life.

Anyway, I don't mean to be redundant, but dreams don't take up any sort of space. If you dream up a keyboard design, it's essentially an idea. The experience that the idea creates exists.

Thoughts exist as tiny packets of energy called thought forms and they carry out the intent of the thinker. I'm not going to argue that dreams don't exist as energy, but I just consider them as a part of a person--something The Sim's people probably don't have.

Hmm, you seem to know a great deal more than I do about science, and I'm not sure if anything I said is too relevant. But, I had to give it one last go, lol.

[MathGuy2]

I don't know much about the Sims, either; I'm speaking about artificial intelligence humans in general. All I am saying is that I see no need, and no ability, to prove existence beyoned that of this world we are in.

[Deedlit]

[color=green]Well, we have feelings, don't we? If we're hurt, we feel the pain. That's how I know I exist. I'm not an illusion................................................................................................or am I? o_O[/color]

[Guest SuperMaxSonic]

I just got kicked in the crotch. I [B]KNOW[/B] that I exist.

[klinanime1]

Theoretically, nothing can be proven. Pain cannot be proven to anyone other than yourself, color can definately NOT be proven, but existence... That's difficult. And, what exactly is existence? Just "to be" is not enough of a defination. Are we discussin physical, mental, or just overall existence.

[Shinken]

Existence is... A state of mind. Here's an example;

Everyone's had a dream before. So, we all know that when we're in a dream, everything that happens in the dream is reality to us. (even if you're wearing a pink bunny suit, you still believe it :bluesweat: ) You don't even think about anything else, just what's happening around you. And, even if you think about it in the dream, you never prove/disprove whether or not the dream is real; UNTIL YOU WAKE UP.

Just a little tidbit to chew on (with your mind, not your mouth!)

[Baron Samedi]

if i hit myself it hurts. or i think it does. am i real??? aaaaaaaaah im fading!! oh no my screen is whiting out- uuh hehehe but this is kinda pointless- we can debate about whether we exist but i am saying i exist because 8 think i do. thinking is the main point of this. perception is everything. your brain gemerally sees what it wants to see. if you saw a skeleton walking down the street you probably wouldnt see it because your brain would say "that is impossible" and you probably wouldnt see it. so this is pointless. yet fun. maybe we dont exist but some part of us must because we can think. .... *wanders around in the corridors of his brain loking for companionship and protection*

[BlackDragon465]

This question has been going through my mind for a long time.

"Can we prove we exist?"

I came to the conclusion of never worrying about proving this and forget about it. I think it is impossible to prove we exist or we don't so just try to do what you think is best.

[Defcon5]

Who cares? You can't prove the point either way, so you might as well go with what you've got.

[ianthestampede]

I feel i exist because of course, i just do! How can you prove we don't exist? that is the question! haha!! If you can alter history, or a persons belief does that make you exist?
If we don't exist whats the problem? If we don't exist right now i'm just talkin to nothing, and nothing is responding. Does that make it something?

[Syk3]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Battosai [/i]
[B]Existence is... A state of mind. Here's an example;

Everyone's had a dream before. So, we all know that when we're in a dream, everything that happens in the dream is reality to us. (even if you're wearing a pink bunny suit, you still believe it :bluesweat: ) You don't even think about anything else, just what's happening around you. And, even if you think about it in the dream, you never prove/disprove whether or not the dream is real; UNTIL YOU WAKE UP.

Just a little tidbit to chew on (with your mind, not your mouth!) [/B][/QUOTE]
Not necessarily. I've had more than one dream before that I've knew was a dream, and I was able to manipulate it the way I wanted to. In one dream, I told some random lady walking down that she wasn't real and that it was just a dream, and it disappeared, making for quite a satisfaction on my part. :p Also, another dream I realized that it was a dream, and flicked some guy off, and when he was about to punch me, I woke myself up (on purpose).

That would contradict your statement. :) As for the overall question, well, I can't prove whether my reality is real, but I know that I exist. Keeps the question open for the Matrix, though.

[Semjaza]

I don't get these questions in general. I'm not very philosophical.

If you're not sure that you exist... how can you be sure that anything you interact with does? How can you be sure the feelings you feel, such as pain, are even real? If you don't exist, yet you are able to see and touch yourself and other humans amongst you in your everyday life... why in the world would pushing a rock or knocking over a tree prove anything?

The only one that ever has made sense to me was "I think, therefore I am." Really, if you [i]didn't exist[/i] why would you even be able to question your existance?

[Shy]

[size=1]Why does our existance matter? If we aren't "real", then we can have no physical impact on whatever the "real" world is. If i found out that I was a computer program I would not look at things differently. Unless I could suddenly walk on water like Jesus and Neo then I doubt that my "life" would change in any way.

-Shy[/size]

[enigma]

[COLOR=blue][I]Hmm, tricky. Even if we can't prove that we exist, and that what you see isn't real, something HAS to exist, because if nothing existed, then what would be allowing us to percieve the things we can? Things do exist, and I believe that I along with everyone and everything else do exist and that that whole business about us being in the Matrix or some far fetched story is just nonsense. If we all think in that state of mind, then why bother doing anything? Why go to school, be with friends, or do anything if nothing exists? In some peoples mind, this post doesn't exist, and I'm not writing anything because I don't exist, so no moderators could delete something that's not there, but now I'm just rambling on nonsense that even I am puzzled by.

*Ahem*

So as I said, I believe that we exist, and though I can't prove it, I still believe it.[/COLOR][/I]

[SaiyanPrincessX]

I was thinking of something along these lines a few days ago when I saw Reloaded'. You really can't prove that we exist, we may very well live in a computer simulation of somesort, I mean its [I]very[/I] unlikly but hey, who knows. Everything around us seems real in our minds but yet noone really knows, or ever stops to think about it. I don't think theres really any right answer.

[(<AA>)]

Oy, no one can PROVE that he/she/we exist, but we just do. Could we be having this conversation if we didn't exist? I guess you could argue still just talking doesn't prove you exist, but If we didn't exist, what are we? God's imagination? Someone's thoughts? What???

[Patronus]

I think it is foolish to rule out that we may all be some day-dream of a greater being out there. There is no definate way to prove we exist.

[MathGuy2]

Even if we do exist, what's the point?

If there isn't life after death, why worry about life before death? What does anything matter?

If there is life after death, what do we care about that life? From all I've been taught in church, when we die we stay in heaven forever. What's the point of that? Why should we even care to stay in heaven - what will we do there?

If we don't exist, what are the effects of anything we do?

If there isn't life after death, why should we bother to save people's lives? If there is, why should we bother to save the lives of good people? If its citizens are going to heaven anyway, why does the Vatican need a defensive military force?

What difference does it make whether or not we exist? What would we be able to use to define our existence? If there were a big switch in the sky labeled "Existence/Imagination", what would be the effects of pushing it?

[Baron Samedi]

maybe this is all a dream. what i think is that this life could possibly be a dream. we have dreams and have you ever had a dream where you all of a sudden go into another dream. piching yourself to wake you up may work- but it is difficult becasue only in your mind does it move and hurt. if you concentrate you can wake up. maybe these consciousnesses are just a big community dream. people go to sleep and dream the same things. but we are not people... we are large consciousnesses and when we think we "die" we wake up. we don't remember our "waking life". this could be a complex group-dream involving millions of creatures. who knows- it is the most (or one of, excepting how marshmallows taste so good) complex and difficult questions. cya