North Korean NUKES...!?

[James]

[color=royalblue]I'm sorry gokents, but your over-simplistic rantings aren't making a great deal of sense.

Just because a small minority of people aren't "recognizing the greatness" of America, doesn't mean that the entire nation does not deserve support from America.

What you're saying now is coming off as some stupid emotional rhetoric. There isn't a lot of logic behind it.

What you are essentially saying is that just because the United States gave South Korea its independence (and I don't mean to trivalize that important point), South Korean people are somehow unable to be critical of the United States. That sounds a hell of a lot more like a dictatorship situation, as opposed to a democratic situation.

We should [i]always[/i] be able to criticize Governments from ANY country. This does not make South Koreans "anti-American". It simply means that they are protesting the policies of a foreign Government.

You have to put this in perspective, gokents. And you're clearly not doing that.

I could sit here and make a list of all the foolish things that the United States has done over the course of history. But does that mean that I hate Americans? No. I have many American friends and I would never speak ill of them.

The same goes for my own Government. I can (and should) openly criticize my own Government. That doesn't mean I'm "anti-Australian".

The problem is that you are seeing the world as simply black or white. You forget that there are many shades of grey in between. Most problems are more complex than they appear -- and in this case, it's unfair to suddenly dump an entire country just because a few individuals are refusing to kiss America's collective toes. Even if they [i]do[/i] protest about the USA, it doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't thankful for the USA's support of them. It [i]is[/i] possible to be critical of something, whilst also being thankful and supportive of it at the same time.[/color]

[Kent]

Obviously we disagree.

Im not trying to say that these people aren't allowed to protest. The freedoms they have been granted have allowed them to do so. But it still does not exscues the actions of a group.

Although I may say these people should be more supportive of us, that doesn't mean I say they can't protest. It means that I will not accept their actions based on the facts.

Fact is, Americas possible actions against Iraq are just about the same as those taken to liberate Korea. Although the target of operations in Iraq will be to take out saddam, the end product will be to rid the world of a major problem and to liberate the people of Iraq.

I can give my opinion stating that I believe America should ditch the South Koreans but that was not to personally hurt the people of Korea. That was a statment to collectivly effect the people who protest, yet to be possibly taken actions.

Yes there are shades of gray, I know that just as any one should, but that does not exscues the blatent disregard of facts.
America is a good country. Korea is a struggling country that should appreciate our involvment. They dont.

I dont want anything bad to come on the people who are innocent and descent, but my pithy comment about dropping involvment in Korea is not enough to warrent our tit-for-tat, back and forth debate about the protesting of a group of idealistic and ignorant students.

My question for you is...

What do you think the people of South Korea think of the North Korean communist regime? what do you think they think of North Koreas obtaining nukes? And do you think they would rather have the U.S.A. in possesion of nukes or the communist?

Who do you honestly think the North Koreans would use a nuke more judicously than America? And what is the good of North Korea gaining controll of such a weapon?

Its also important to ask, what is the good of questioning and protesting an action that will only benefit the innocent?

Does anyone truly believe Iraq would be better off with Saddam? Obviously the South Korean college students do.

So why would they protest this action, all the while ignoring a nation to their north who is persuing the most devastating weapons ever created.

I don't believe in blind allegance or foolish acceptance of anothers actions (none the less, big brother government).
But I also don't believe in protesting just for the sake of insult.

[Tigervx]

I think nukes are more weapons of intimidation then destruction. Think about it, one nuke, causes a war of more then 75% of the population is destroyed. Nobody, and i mean nobody, not even sadam is stupid enough to destroy the human race. Even if you do take over the worl, what good is it if you can't rule anybody? THEY'D ALL BE DEAD! So i think not many people are insane enough to kill the worlds population.

[James]

[color=royalblue]gokents...now you're seriously disregarding facts. I completely agree with you about Iraq. And I don't agree with the reasons behind the student protests. But students protest [i]everywhere[/i]. It is foolish to suggest that the United States should pull out just because it's been "insulted" by a small number of people.

It's very simple.

You're saying that the United States should pull out of South Korea because of these so-called insulting protests. Who cares if you've been insulted? How many times must I mention that this was only a small group of people? It does [i]not[/i] reflect the views of all of the South Korean people. I don't see [i]any[/i] reason to justify your comments on that subject.

[/color][quote]I can give my opinion stating that I believe America should ditch the South Koreans but that was not to personally hurt the people of Korea. That was a statment to collectivly effect the people who protest, yet to be possibly taken actions.
[/quote]

[color=royalblue]Ah but you see, if you support pulling out of South Korea, then you [i]are[/i] hurting the people of South Korea. If America pulls out, who do the South Koreans have to protect them against North Korea? Remember, North Korea has the fourth largest military force in the entire world.

The best way to protect the interests of innocent people in this situation is to remain in the region, so that they are protected against North Korea.

Granted, some will disagree with that. But surely the protection of the many outweighs the protests of the few.[/color]

[Kent]

It is true that the protection of the many out wieghs the protesting of the few.

I've never been the guy to take his ball home when he was lossing the game.

But my patience with people only goes so far.

With drawing my countries troops is not the correct path. I have known that the whole time, but I still have to stick by my comments simply because the North Koreans are killing Americans to this day.

Believe it or not, the North Koreans killed soliders cutting away fallen trees in the dmz with in the last ten years.

How can I actually stand back and not react to these protestors?

I really never wanted the with draw of the soldiers because of the protest, it actually was a feeling of mine well before that.
I have felt this way for a long time. To me, Korea is just a Veitnam that never had social upheaval.(hippies)

I am the type who knows evil exist and knows that I cant make this world a perfect place. With that in mind, I have always wanted to "cut our losses" and just leave.

I really do want the Korean people to be happy, but the comment made, was simply to inflame a group of people who would never see it.

You are right about mostly all of what you have said, especially since you acknowledge the protestors ignorance, but to take this as seriously as has been done and all the while not addressing the questions of my last post is just not being fair.

You are a fair person, very fair,(hell, you let me ramble), but I would just like you to look at the very first post I made and tell me that you honestly believe I meant to harm the innocents of S. Korea by with drawing their one life line to a descent, growing, stable country.

No one, especially myself wants good people to suffer.

I would also like to discuss the questions from my last post before this.

[James]

[color=royalblue]Okay, but now you're changing your argument. You originally said that troops should be pulled out.

Clearly, this was just a kneejerk reaction to a small number of idealist South Korean protestors.[/color]

[Kent]

Yes exactly, it was a knee jerk reaction.

So why treat it as if it was a truely meaningful statement.

I have felt that way for a long time, but it was like changing the oil in my car to me.

I knew it was not cool, but it had to be done.

The thing is that I have always kept an eye on european, asian and american protestors who painted America to be a "bad" nation. After keeping that eye out for this amount of time, and having my own sense of loyalty and patriotism, I have grown to resent all those who do these protesting actions.

Does that mean that I always say the right thing, no.
Do I always make my points exactly as I had meant, no.

But do I honestly care for any other human, no matter who (excluding those who I deem "evil"), yes, I care for them.

Koreans are people and they deserve all that I have, but should I have to ignore the elite intellects of the Korean country saying inflamitory comments and marching over an american flag, no.

I should be able to say the same sort of comments. Which I am allowed to, but out of manners and respect, I never resort to insults. Rather, I try to point out all my country had done.

[James]

[color=royalblue]So why treat it as if it was a meaningful statement? Are you serious?

By that measure, I should never take anything you say seriously again.

If you're going to have a kneejerk reaction to something, here's a recommendation -- take a deep breath and relax. Don't post it. Because unless you say at the end of your posts "this is silly, don't take it seriously", then people ARE going to take it seriously. lol

Now that you've drawn back a bit and softened your stance...then yes, I agree with you. I don't agree with people who say that America is "bad". But I do believe that America has done some unforgiveable things that it [i]should[/i] be criticized for. Still, that doesn't mean that I agree with many of the flag-burning leftists out there who have their heads in the clouds and can't face reality.[/color]

[Kent]

Well as for unforgivable things...

I never tried to address them. We both know that America, Austriallia and every other country have done such actions.

But I never wanted to get into that. Although Ive gotta say, these Korean protestors were not protesting anything else besides possible actions in Iraq.

I am glad that even with all of our debate we can come to some sort of conclusion. But I want to make it clear that any comment as outlandish as my own original statement should be "taken with a grain of salt."

I think we both know what the idea of my debate has been. I just hope that I can remain as composed as yourself and I have been here, in all of my debating.

I truly am happy we get to debate this way.

thank you.

[James]

[color=royalblue]Even though there are still many questions surrounding the Iraq issue, I think you and I fundamentally agree on that point.

But as for the original idea of this topic...as I said, it should come as no surprise. The true surprise was that North Korea admitted its development of nuclear weapon technology. :drunk:[/color]

[Red]

[b]I don't understand all this talk about nukes all the time.
What country has over 3,000 active nuclear warheads? America!

Ok, North Korea went against an agreement to not build nuclear weapons, but in this dane age it seems the policy is that if you are a country then you need a nuclear weapons program.

It took America a long to buckle over reducing it's nuclear arsenal, which can still blow up almost every major city on the face of the planet.

I personally think that America are becoming downright silly with their "axis of evil" talk and "war against terrorism". Do America expect to go to war with the entire world? How can they fight "wars against terrorism" in Indonesia, Iraq, Afghanistan [i]and[/i] North Korea if they ever do go to "war"? America may have a huge military but that is stretching it's resources way too far.

"Down with Communism" Gokents? The [i]idea[/i] of communism is an excellent one, but it can't be implemented properly. Look at Bolshevik Russia if you want to see communism trying to be used on a grand scale. There are many types of communism, as Stalin demonstrated in the late 1930s, you can let things go here and there but in other sections communism could be implemented fully.

I know I may be ranting on and my argument may be poor, but my views remain strong about nuclear weapons and America. Most of us on these boards are the future generation, the future leaders and workers of this world. Do we really want to go into a world desolated by war?[/b]

[Guest cloricus]

Okay ignoring all above.
They are communists, you gokents and your countries are capitalists, if you don?t understand the difference never post a thread on this until you do. The only reason that your system of government works is because it works of the natural greed of men (& or women, to be politically correct.)
Students are idiots; they march and protest on complete crap, but there always have to be groups apposing some thing because one day that thing could go bad and know one would know what was happening. (Eg. Greenpeace, no one really cares what they do on a day to day basis but you feel at easy knowing that if some thing bad happens to the environment they will be there against it and they will inform you of it. - Example only.)
Iraq is a special case, or what I would like to call it anyway.
It is under a dictatorship, which as long as you don?t cross it you will go far in life, but if you do cross it you will not live, your life. Saddam lies allot, almost as much as the Americans lie about him. So I partly agree with him being taken out of power, preferably in elections but not taken out in America?s ways and in no way have an "American Friendly Leader" put in place, the world cannot afford America in control of oil.
America has nukes, Russia has nukes, England I believe has nukes, France has nukes etc etc. Why cannot North Korea have Nuck clear weapons?
Just some thoughts for you.

-Lord Epssy

[James]

[color=royalblue]I don't undertand the suspicion of America. America isn't perfect, but come on.

Why can't North Korea have nuclear weapons? Let's see...

It's not democratic. It's a violent regime that lashes out and attack for no reason. It is known to test ballistic missiles [i]right over[/i] its neighbours skies. Understand yet?

Furthermore, if you think Saddam can be ousted peacefully, you're kidding yourself in the most major way possible.

When he was first "elected" to office, he held a meeting of the Iraqi Congress/Parliament. During that meeting, he read a list of his political enemies' names...and systematically, Republican Guard troops entered the building and escorted each politician out. They were, of course, executed.

Saddam Hussein is basically a psychotic murderer and serial killer. Are you telling me we can actually negotiate with someone like that? Of course not.

War is never "good". But sometimes war is necessary to create peace. I never cease to be amazed by people who don't seem to understand that.

About capitalism: Capitalism works because it is based on incentive. If you make money, you get to keep most of your money. And you get to privately own land and posessions.

In a communist nation, the concept is great (equal everything for everyone), but in execution, it creates nothing but misery. You can't own your own private land (it becomes property of the state), you generally can't elect the leader of your nation (historically speaking, anyway), etc etc...

Communism is based on a very ideological principle. But the problem is that it isn't practical. Who is going to work their guts out, only to have their posessions taken away and distributed by the state? No one that I know, at least.

Capitalism isn't perfect (it requires low taxes and a stable welfare system to function properly), but it's a hell of a lot better than communism in practice. The ideal situation is to have a mix of capitalism and socialism -- a strong identity and independence for the individual, whilst also providing a very strong welfare network for the masses.

A lot of people who complain about either capitalism or communism often don't seem to know a lot about either. If you look over history and see how both have functioned in varying situations, you get a better idea of where the balance should be.[/color]

[Kent]

Yes! James, I couldn't have said it better myself.

And thats for both your subjects of North Korea and communism.

I also want to mention that I find it almost insulting to see people try and tell me I don't know about communism and capitalism.
Basically Im not even gonna bother, the subject is actually remedial to me after this point in my education, and its amazing that you (cloricus) would act like I didn't know what I was talking about.

(Just go back and read all the prior post)

Its not even worth the time to talk about it. Just dont act like I'm simple minded.

I also know, just as any, (oh I guess 8th grader and up) should who the Bulshevics (sp?) were. Come on guys, this wasn't even a discussion about that bogus practice of communism.

This was about North Korean nukes, and really I just post this because I wanted to make it clear that I have stated everything there is to state in one long back and forth with James (a most excellent debate/debater).

Credit to James for the argument and a big boo to all of you who think North Korea is no danger. (that also goes for any of the commies here, boooo!)

Down with Communism!
cya
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