Right and Wrong

[Dan L]

I don't actually think this has been done before.. if it has then I did look.. but for some reason the search feature has been working a bit unusual for me recently.. (such as, I've searched for something quite specifically and no results, then I managed to find it after a while, without the search feature)


In some areas of the world, it is considered OK for a man to have sex with his daughter.. in others there are guys who go round travelling, being payed to sleep with young virgins. In others, it is perfectly OK to kill people under certain conditions. In one particular part of the US (which I've forgotten the name of) it's actually illegal to lend out your vacuum cleaner..

The question is: Is there an absolute Right and Wrong, in your opinion? Or, is it all down to what we or our society believe to be right or wrong.


I very firmly believe that there is a kind of absolute Right and wrong. The specifics can be found throughout the book of Exodus in the Bible (there's not just the Ten Commandments, there's lots of very specific laws), but it is better summarised as 'love your neighbour'.

Anyone who truly loves everyone would never kill anyone, steal from anyone, inflict severe physical injury on anyone, threaten anyone.. the list goes on. Ultimately, I believe that this one commandment, if everyone obeyed it fully (which even all Christians who try to don't all the time) then there wouldn't be half the problems that exist today. I know that that kind of world is not possible, but that's how I judge my "Absolute Right".

The main reason that I object to any view that there is no absolute right, and that it's all down to us, is essentially to say 'Criminals aren't wrong, we just believe they are'.

[James]

[color=royalblue]Well, really...think about it. There is really no absolute right or wrong.

I personally like our laws and our morals (in our society). And that's how I live my life. But it doesn't mean I'm more right than someone in an African tribe who does something totally different.

Of course, I don't think anyone would support the idea of human suffering...but once again, it depends on the culture and background. In some tribes, people go through painful rituals when they become "sexually active". It's painful, yet even the subject of the pain accepts it -- and is even proud of it. It's their culture.

You simply can't point to the Bible or any other reference for an absolute right or wrong -- to you, the Bible represents absolute rights and wrongs. To someone else, it might be another holy book. Or it might be a painting on a rock wall. It's all subjective.

That doesn't mean that murder or something is necessarily right...and I wouldn't support it, nor would most people. But it's really the culture/society that dictates these things. There isn't an absolute right or wrong...and there really never has been. It kind of relates to what I was saying in the "normal" thread. Just look at society over the ages -- even in our society, what we consider right and wrong has changed so much even over the last 100 years.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]Well, really...think about it. There is really no absolute right or wrong.

I personally like our laws and our morals (in our society). And that's how I live my life. But it doesn't mean I'm more right than someone in an African tribe who does something totally different.

Of course, I don't think anyone would support the idea of human suffering...but once again, it depends on the culture and background. In some tribes, people go through painful rituals when they become "sexually active". It's painful, yet even the subject of the pain accepts it -- and is even proud of it. It's their culture.

You simply can't point to the Bible or any other reference for an absolute right or wrong -- to you, the Bible represents absolute rights and wrongs. To someone else, it might be another holy book. Or it might be a painting on a rock wall. It's all subjective.

That doesn't mean that murder or something is necessarily right...and I wouldn't support it, nor would most people. But it's really the culture/society that dictates these things. There isn't an absolute right or wrong...and there really never has been. It kind of relates to what I was saying in the "normal" thread. Just look at society over the ages -- even in our society, what we consider right and wrong has changed so much even over the last 100 years.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

OK... Maybe I should have worded what I said differently.. I believe that essentially, what the Bible says is right and wrong is just that.. and that's pretty much my personal belief. But I don't just think "The Bible says I can't kill, so I won't kill", because that kind of thinking gets me no-where. As I said.. or rather tried to (I probably could have worded it better)- working on the assumption that God gave us the Ten Commandments (it's debatable I know, but let's not really go into that for now), they weren't there merely to be adhered to and for people to point to them and say "this says you're wrong so you're wrong", since that just causes conflicts. They are, instead, there as a guideline of what we ideally wouldn't do if we truly loved everyone equally.

The ten commandments go something like this (in no particular order):
1- Love God
2- Don't worship Idols
3- Don't steal
4- Don't use God's name in vain
5- Don't murder
6- No adultery
7- Honour your father/mother
8- Don't desire your neighbour's wife/belongings
9- Don't lie to people
10- Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy

Now, 1,2,4 and 10 (not necessarily in that order in scripture) Are fairly debatable as to whether they're right or not, because it all depends on who your God (if you have one) is, but if you actually believe in any God, then only 10 is really debatable (i.e. it depends which God you believe in). but the rest- If you truly loved someone you would never do that to them anyway. And [i]if[/i] we lived in a society where we all kept those rules- a society where the rules didn't need to be upheld because we all kept them, then the world would be so much better.. I know that it's not possible today, or ever, but [i]that[/i] is why I believe in an absolute right.. not just because the bible says so, but because the world would be far better if we all did this than if we all cared only for ourselves and no-one else.. OK, the reasoning stems from the bible, but I've reasoned it out with myself too.. I'm not simply trying to say "My God says it's wrong therefore it is"

I wasn't actually trying to say that your point of view says that "Murder is right".. All I was saying is that your viewpoint pretty much says "Murder isn't wrong, we're just told that it is". I may still be wrong on that, it's just my interpretation

Edit: Another point I was going to make... I don't have any problems wioth cultures who have rituals which involve pain of some sort- Jews are circumcised, and Christianity came from Judaism. There are many different rituals of sorts, which differ among the many Christian denominations, and although I don't follow them all or necessarily approve of them, I don't think that they are absolutely wrong any more than the rituals in tribes, as long as there's no evil intentions in there.

To some degree, I believe that the moral code is set by society.. but as with the ten commandments, I see it as more of a guidline than a "The law says it's wrong because it's wrong"- and I think that as long as the law has some kind of moral backing then I'm perfectly happy to adhere to it

[Kent]

This is intresting, a topic that could result in truly intresting and possibly heated debate.

I would say there is a right and wrong.

But I would also have to argue that there are subjects with in, that make a good case for the idea that society makes its own versions of right and wrong.

In support of both of my opposing opinions, I was thinking of citing some examples.

I would say right and wrong are things you can feel. This is because I consider myself a moral person, and usually if I do something crappy to a friend or family member I actually feel bad.

With that in mind, I know that other people are all different, ya da da da da, we are all gonna have different morals, blah blah blah...

I know that stuff, so it is a personal thing, and that is exactly what I meant it to be.

right and wrong to me... not someone else.

But now in support of my other view being that society makes the rules. I have one topic that almost everyone hates.

pot. grass. herb.

To me, smoking it is ok. If it rules your life, its not doing you any good, but its still ok.

In my opinion its not wrong, and it hurts no one besides the person indulging. (if you consider it to do that)

But, society considers marijuana to be a horrible thing that is worth breaking up families and putting people in jail for.

spending billions to prevent its use, and never looking at the possibility that its not wrong to do.

"they" just stick to their guns... weed is wrong.

All the while, the very same supreme courts and government officials are deciding that while smoking grass is an endangerment to yourself and possibly others. Aborting a baby from your own body is your choice because it is your body, hence, your choice.

With all that said, I will try and sum up my points with an all encompassing comment, a thesis if you will. (a crappy one though)

right and wrong are decided by the morals of a society, but that does not mean that the society itself has made the proper decision about what is right and what is wrong.

[James]

[color=royalblue]I'm not saying that right and wrong exist (in law) and we follow them [i]just because[/i] they are law.

We follow them because, for the most part, we believe the rights and wrongs that the Bible sets out (in this culture).

But that doesn't mean that we are anymore "objectively right" than another culture who does something differently. It's just what we choose to do. Religion was created for this very reason -- to promote these moral values in our society. I don't have a problem with that; it's just the way things are.

I follow the laws because I agree with them as a human being, not because I'm afraid of getting in trouble or something.

But in other cultures, the values are different.

I mean, I guess that most cultures are opposed to murder because we are human beings...we have emotional connections to other human beings...and we dislike pain. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out why certain crimes [i]are[/i] crimes -- because those crimes have victims who are hurt. Hurt is bad. That further perpetuates our morals and laws.

Whereas in some cultures, people go through pain to achieve a certain status or something. They view it in a different way.

So, yeah...I'm rambling now, but I think you understand what I mean.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]I'm not saying that right and wrong exist (in law) and we follow them [i]just because[/i] they are law.

We follow them because, for the most part, we believe the rights and wrongs that the Bible sets out (in this culture).

But that doesn't mean that we are anymore "objectively right" than another culture who does something differently. It's just what we choose to do. Religion was created for this very reason -- to promote these moral values in our society. I don't have a problem wiht that; it's just the way things are.

I follow the laws because I agree with them as a human being, not because I'm afraid of getting in trouble or something.

But in other cultures, the values are different. That's just how things are lol[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

OK.. I think it's obvious that when I mean to say one thing I tend to imply another..

I never meant to imply that you, or necessarily anyone, actually follow the law just because it's the law.. I was just kind of trying to say that I treat the law in kind of the same way as I do the commandments- as a guideline for good and bad.. And yeah.. the law in society as we know it is pretty much descended from the biblical laws, as far as I can see, because the leaders of nations, hundreds of years ago, were likely to be Christian.

So yeah..I never really meant to infer that you refer to the law as many Christians refer to the Bible, as a "It says it so it is" kind of thing..

[James]

[color=royalblue]Heh, yeah that's cool. ;)

I think we basically agree.

I mean...there are so many different reasons why we follow a certain moral code. Part of it is religion...part of it is our family...and part of it is society at large.

We follow what we believe is right. And even though we all follow the same basic human morals (anti-murder, anti-rape etc)...there are of course many shades of grey even in our society. You have people who are pro and anti abortion...you have people who are pro and anti sex education. I mean, the list goes on and on.

So, what is immoral to one person is merely a normal way of life for someone else. In the end, it really [i]is[/i] all subjective and a matter of perception. It's just that, within a certain society (whatever one you're talking about)...the majority follows the laws that are set down there.

So I guess the laws provide a very basic framework for morality. But sometimes laws prohibit some people's freedoms because those in power perceive those freedoms to be immoral. So...it can work in so many different ways.[/color]

[Break]

[size=1][color=crimson]The 10 commandments aren't exactly the law, but they are just set of rules that you ultimately [i]should[/i] follow, and the world would be a pretty better place if people did. I don't really follow religious rules though so I'm being a hypocrite.[/size][/color]

[James]

[color=royalblue]Ahh, but [i]you[/i] think people [i]should[/i] follow 'em.

That's the key. lol[/color]

[Guest Shift]

Of course their is a right and wrong. I mean.. Well for example..

To kill somebody is wrong no-matter where you live.

But to help somebody like, for instance a homeless person, however is a very right and honest/good thing to do, still, that's the same nomatter where you go.

But I guess it does matter on how you think about it...

[James]

[color=royalblue]What about tribes where people are killed for a variety of practical reasons?

Sure, it's wrong to us. But not to them.[/color]

[Break]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]What about tribes where people are killed for a variety of practical reasons?

Sure, it's wrong to us. But not to them.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=crimson]Yeah, like for sacraficial reasons. See, our God doesn't require sacrificies to do whatever he does, but tribal Gods/Godesses obviously do.

There is a right and wrong, our ideals and hopes would be the 'right' and murderous people (in our society maybe) would be the wrong. I think.. but I don't even understand what I'm saying.[/size][/color] :)

[conpiracymonki]

[b][size=1]
Exactly. National, local, and international law, and all other religious laws are all the same really. They're guidelines. The only differences are where each type of law decides that the grey is black, if you know what I mean. And how punishments get meted out. But that's included in the other sentence anyhoo.
[/b]
I'm a Muslim in case anyone is wondering[/size]

[Darkness]

In alot of situations, there is no wrong or right.....only people's ideals.

[Mitch]

[color=red] We humans are imperfect and shattered ourselves when it comes to right and wrong, so how is it possible to say that there is a right and wrong which we can truly achieve? Sure, on a biblical sense, an unknown sense, it may be true, but in the world we live in today--with all its numerous laws and prohibitions--there is no ultimatum when it comes to right in wrong.

And if we humans ourselves can not always be right and wrong about something, then that just shoots the whole prospect that there is a true right and wrong down the shoot.

So no, I do not believe there is a true right and wrong which we humans can achieve and live by and have at this very moment within our society.

It's just impossible to say that. Impossible in the sense that we are imperfect ourselves and entitled to be wrong in most cases than right.[/color]

[Guest Matt]

[color=red][b]I'm right, your wrong. :p

What is right and what is wrong differs from person to person. For instance, the "Serial Sniper" thought it was right to kill, while most people think it is not. It is all how you precieve things.[/b][/color]

[kagome]

There's no absolute right or wrong. To me, there're basic goodness in life (depend on your culture and where you lived), right is when do or carry out those goods without hurting or disrespect the other goods. For example, one of the good is life, if you take a life away, that's wrong.

[Hinata]

You make a good point about the Ten Commandments but there is one thing that you forgot about...In the Bible it states that we as man must follow the laws of the land(EARTH,country,state,county,etc.)
(Although, some of those laws are absolutely ridiculos and no one follows them!)
But besides that ABSOLUTE RIGHT AND WRONG does exist but in the persons eyes!! Wrong and Right may be influenced by society but what you believe can only be upheld by you. Its not up to society to give absolutes in this!!

[GundamGohan]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Son Goten [/i]
[B][color=red][b]I'm right, your wrong. :p

What is right and what is wrong differs from person to person. For instance, the "Serial Sniper" thought it was right to kill, while most people think it is not. It is all how you precieve things.[/b][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]
The Dude's got it pretty much pegged out...

the only things I have to add is that the only reason a person "knows" or rather believes what is right or wrong, is because it was taught to him/her throughout their upbringing... (whether that from your religion, parents, etc...)
but anyways... there is no right and wrong... just ideas and beliefs...
Now... I hate to pick on the bible... (people tend to get ticked at me when I do...) but I must in this case...
The bible is baisically a collection of stories that supported qualities that THE RULING CLASS of the time felt was the best way to CONTROL the population... they furthurmore stretched their "authority" by stating that if you dont follow our rules, when you die you're going to Hell... (wow!!)
But then again... the same people who wrote the bible are the same people who thought the world was flat...

Now... furthur contradiction within religion is the Crucades...
How do you explain the POPE decreeing that it's okay to kill a bunch of "heaten Muslims" down in Turkey, but not to kill other Christians?
Another... Hitler... Good Husband (never cheated), didnt drink, didnt smoke... didnt do all the other stuff that most other rulers of the day did on a daily baisis... (he even published his entire plan almost 10 years BEFORE WW2... plenty of warning)
Just imagine if Germany had won?? there would be no jews (No me for that matter either) and his ideals would be the "correct" ones, because he won.
The rules of society and history is written by the winners...

So anyways... where was I??
Oh yes... there is no right and wrong... just beliefs that are learned so you can function within that times society.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Break [/i]
[B][size=1][color=crimson]Yeah, like for sacraficial reasons. See, our God doesn't require sacrificies to do whatever he does, but tribal Gods/Godesses obviously do. [/size][/color][/B][/QUOTE]

Not anymore he doesn't, at least.. Throughout most of the Old Testament the Jews offered animal sacrifices on a regular basis, but not human except for once, when Abraham was told to offer his son Isaac to God, and he was just about to when God essentially said "Wait. I was just testing to see if you had the faith to do it. Let him go"..

So yeah... he doesn't ask for sacrifices [i]now[/i] ;) , at least not sacrifices of animals/humans

[Solo Tremaine]

Like most people have been saying here, it depends how you choose to live your life. A very sefless person would percieve that a right way of living may be to help others while denying yourself, although others around you may say it's wrong because you don't leave enough for yourself- a selfless person doesn't perceive that to be wrong. Someone whose life revolves around them would see the right way of life as doing things to benefit themselves (hence the sniper killing people to gain millions of dollars). Thus, they see what they're doing as right, whereas most of the rest of the world see it as wrong.

The social norms and morals today based on rules set out in Biblical times give us a sense of what we should and shouldn't do, hence the concept of right and wrong being generated in the first place. For example- by society's view, it's wrong to steal, so legally, you aren't allowed to do it. There are exceptions to this- cliche concept of stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving family- you're doing it for a selfless cause. Does this make it wrong? You're stealing, but on the other hand, you're helping someone. Everything you do will have a good and bad consequence, and it's the one that has the most extreme effects that makes it right or wrong to do.

Sorry if any of this doesn't make sense. I'm very very tired.